Re: [libreoffice-users] How to move a Frame anchored to Page

Hi Regina,

On 2024-09-10 15:13, Regina Henschel wrote:
> John Kaufmann schrieb am 10.09.2024 um 17:41:
> > On 2024-09-10 06:26, Regina Henschel wrote:
> > > John Kaufmann schrieb am 10.09.2024 um 08:28:
> > > > There are two ways to think about a Frame anchored to Page:
> > > > 1) That its position is anchored relative to position on a page (for example, Top Center), any page.
> > > > 2) That its position is anchored to a /particular/ page (but may be shifted on that page).
> > >
> > > It is a common mistake to think, that positioning frame/image/shape relative to page needs the anchor 
> > > "page". Therefore this option is now hidden.
> > >
> > > > Writer seems to adopt the second sense, correct? That is, for example,
> > > > if anchored on page 20 of 24, the frame will remain with page 20 even if pages are inserted or 
> > > > deleted before page 20, correct?
> > >
> > > Yes. And that use case is very, very seldom. I do not know any example.
> >
> > Here is an example: A guidebook (for elections), which will probably be 24 (or possibly 28) pages, 
> > containing seven /pairs/ of pages in which each pair addresses one topic that is best displayed at 
> > a glance -- that is, should be ideally on facing pages.
>
> Then the first paragraph of the page has to specify a page break with the correct page style. For example the first paragraph of 
> the left page of the pair defines a page break with page style "Left Page". Such paragraph could contain the topic of 
> that section. The page style "Left Page" has set, that the following page has style "Right Page".
>
> Then you anchor each frame (Why do you need frames?) to this paragraph. If you need a frame/image/shape on 
> the right page, than the first paragraph of the right page needs an explicit page break with page style 
> "Right Page". Then you can anchor the frame/image/shape to this paragraph.

I have been trying this approach, with chaotic results. (Several times I exited the document 
without saving, in order to try again with the file. It might be best to start over from scratch, 
but in my first several attempts I hoped to save a little time by avoiding that.) To avoid delaying 
this reply to you any longer, I've decided to give a partial/work-in-progress reply on the use of 
frames.

Why frames? The fact that you are not a fan (especially of page-anchored frames) concerns me, but I think 
they are perfectly functional here. The document has a history which sets major constraints. [I don't want to 
clutter this Writer discussion with those constraints, but see "Overview" below if you would like 
the history.]

Many persons have contributed parts of the document, combinations of text and graphics which are the origins of most of those 
page-pairs, and those parts must be respected. In addition to giving the guidebook more immediate usability, my hope is to 
"re-factor" it (in the programming sense) to make a path for continual improvement in easy functional pieces. Frames 
facilitate that objective: Each contributor can "own" a topic's page-pairs, organized in facing page frames. Within 
that organizational constraint, text and graphics can be edited as needed, without disturbing others. (This is a special case of 
the Writer Guide's "Using frames for page layout", in which that layout also respects the organization /behind/ the 
document.)

To make this work, page-pairs should  maintain their position in the document without regard to any 
additions or deletions earlier in the document. That requires pages that are essentially locked 
with respect to the rest of the document, so that unlocked (un-anchored) content flows past locked 
pages to the next unlocked page. That means:
 1) Page-anchored frames, Wrap Off, to make locked pages. (I have not detected that the "Allow 
overlap" option makes any difference, and the Writer Guide is silent on that point, so I would 
appreciate knowing its function.)
 2) Small cross-referenced "Continued on page <>" and "Continued from page <>" frames just before 
(page-anchored to the bottom of the page) and after (page-anchored to the top of the page) locked pages, to guide the reader.

I think I just described two valid uses of page-anchored frames, but there is one other 
consideration: Why use frames at all for graphics (which have their own anchors)?  Often an image 
needs a caption, which must stay with that image regardless how other text flows. Writer 
accomplishes that by putting a frame around the image and the caption text (which text may or may 
not be part of an Outline hierarchy). So frames in general seem inevitable.

I tried your suggestion to use paragraph-anchored frames, but the page is not locked, so its content just 
gets pushed to later pages. This seems to happen regardless of Left-/Right-page style. (The nicest advantage 
of Left-/Right-page styles is allowing the page numbering to be set on the "outer edge" of each 
page.)

I appreciate your willingness to take a look at this guidebook. Much as I hate to abuse your time, 
I would like to take you up on that offer, but the document is currently in pieces, and I don't 
want to delay this reply any longer while I restore some order to the chaos. I'm being pinged to 
get to another project, but hope to send you the guidebook within a few hours.
--
Best regards,
John

       =========================================================================
Overview of /Judge of Election Job Aid/ guidebook

[Overview: Federal -> State -> County -> Precinct] In the USA, elections are governed by State 
laws, with some mandatory Federal guidelines. In PA (my State), elections are run by the Counties, subject 
to State laws; for example, the State specifies how voters are qualified, while the Counties provide the 
voting mechanisms (such as balloting machines) to the Precincts, which conduct the actual voting. Precincts 
report votes to the Counties, which report to the State. For Election Day, each Precinct temporarily 
occupies some public space (school, church, firehouse) and is staffed by volunteers led by a Judge of 
Election (JoE).

Like every other Precinct worker, the JoE is a volunteer for that day -- but over the years, requirements for 
how an election must be run at the Precinct level have added lots of well-intended but uncoordinated 
documents, from three levels of government, for the JoE to consult. That became so unwieldy that the County 
Elections Bureau decided to produce a "JoE Job Aid" to try to summarize the most important 
requirements in one place. That was a step in the right direction, but the document needs a lot of 
organization to fulfill its mission (and eventually replace a *lot* of other paperwork). That is the purpose 
of this effort.

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