Re: [libreoffice-users] Writer Character styles: "Default Paragraph Font" vs "No Character Style" vs "- None -"

Hi John,

Am 10.10.2022 um 08:27 schrieb John Kaufmann:
> Hi Harald,
>
> i apologize for taking days to reply. After a week of work 
> emergencies, I have finally had a chance to digest your link and think 
> through the issues.
>
> On 2022-10-02 12:35, LO.Harald.Berger@t-online.de wrote:
> > Am 02.10.2022 um 14:30 schrieb John Kaufmann:
> > > On 2022-10-02 02:50, LO.Harald.Berger@t-online.de wrote:
> > > > Am 02.10.2022 um 07:06 schrieb John Kaufmann:
> > > ...
> > > > > Discussing Character styles, the Help says of the particular style 
> > > > > "No Character Style" that:
> > > > >
> > > > > > "No Character Style is actually the set of character properties 
> > > > > > of the current paragraph style. Choose No Character Style to 
> > > > > > reset the character properties of the selection to those of the 
> > > > > > paragraph style."
> > > > >
> > > > > That sounds fine -- a needed function (though it is new in LO 7, 
> > > > > isn't it?). 
> > > >
> > > > Yes and No, this Character Style is called "Default" in older 
> > > > LibreOffice versions.
>
> Thank you. After thinking about your point, I realize that the 
> "Default" character style was renamed "No Character Style" for the 
> benefit of dummies (like me) who did not see the point earlier, that 
> "Default" means revert to the character attributes of the underlying 
> paragraph style. (No release notes are needed for that.)
>
> That said, this exposes my second problem:
>
> > > > > But then how does that differ from the particular style "Default 
> > > > > Paragraph Style" (about which the Help is silent)? Is not the 
> > > > > Default Paragraph Style already set by the current Paragraph 
> > > > > style? What does it mean to designate a Character style as 
> > > > > "Default Paragraph Style"?
> > > >
> > > > The "Default Paragraph Style" is sort of the mother of all 
> > > > paragraph styles, IMHO it should not be used, but "Text Body" instead.
> > >
> > > I'm sorry, but isn't "Text Body" a Paragraph style, not a Character 
> > > style?  My question is about the different purposes of the 
> > > /Character/ styles "Default Paragraph Style" [about which, as I 
> > > asked, What does it mean to designate a /Character/ style as 
> > > "Default Paragraph Style"?], "No Character Style" and "- None -".
> >
> > I must have misunderstood that then.
>
> If you misunderstood, it was only because my question was confused.  
> What I did not know then about the "Default Paragraph Style" 
> *character* style is that it was *NOT* part of the LO package, but was 
> a *custom* character style, produced in our office to try to produce 
> what LO's "Default"/"No Character Style" already provided (and was 
> given the name "Default Paragraph Style" (which happens to be the same 
> name as the base *paragraph* style) to emphasize its purpose: to 
> revert any character attributes to the default attributes defined by 
> the relevant paragraph style).
>
> I apologize for the noise in that regard; before posting, I should 
> have noticed that it was a *custom* character style. (When I realized 
> that -- and that it was unnecessary and confusing -- I removed it from 
> the system.)
No need for apologies. Not for this.
> > > Finally: though "- None -" is not among the pre-defined Character 
> > > styles, it is among the parent choices when defining a new Character 
> > > style.  How does the behavior of a Character style change when 
> > > "Inherit from" is set to ... "No Character Style" vs "- None -"? [I 
> > > have not detected a difference.]
> > ...
> > Let's look at it from the text. Let's say you have written 10 
> > paragraphs and each paragraph has a different paragraph style.
> > Now you want to bold one word in each paragraph. You select the words 
> > and assign the character style "Strong Emphasis" to each.
> > Now you have added one word too many with the character style sheet 
> > "Strong Emphasis".
> > You now select the word and assign the "No Character Style" character 
> > style sheet. The word now has its old format meaning again.
> >
> > > > Here is some more, I hope, helpful information:
> > > > https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Videos/Professional_work_in_Writer
> > > ...
>
> That was very good [though I could offer a couple minor suggestions*], 
> but I'm sorry to have given the impression that I was unaware of 
> either (a) the basic value of styles or (b) the relationship of 
> Writer's character to paragraph styles.
>
> The most important thing I learned from your link was about the Style 
> Inspector, a great addition to the LO toolset. I'm embarrassed that I 
> did not remark on it when I moved to LO 7, and somehow managed to work 
> with the other Sidebar tools (mostly Navigator and Styles) without 
> noticing it.
>
> [* I mentioned that I could offer two minor suggestions on your link. 
> In doing so, I recognize that these are problems inherent in any 
> system produced in multiple languages: How to name something in 
> translation?  However, since the page was translated from German 
> (Professionelle Arbeit in Writer) to English (Professional work in 
> Writer), I assume that the translation wants to use the corresponding 
> English naming used in the LO system. To that end,
>     (1) "Delete Direct Formatting" => "Clear Direct Formatting"
Thank you for your careful reading.
Normally it should not happen.
For the terms in LibreOffice, I use an English programme version in 
parallel.
Well, as you can see, something can still "slip through".
I have already corrected it. Thank you again.

>     (2) Where you say 'All other paragraph styles are derived from the 
> "Standard" paragraph style', do you mean:
>     'All other paragraph styles are derived from the "Default 
> Paragraph Style"'?]
Yes right, that is also such a translation problem. Thank you for your 
thorough reading.
> Thanks to you and Michael, I understand the purpose of "No Character 
> Style", except for the remaining issue of inheritance. Let me 
> summarize that problem in this way:
>     o Page, List and Table styles are not heritable, and thus by 
> definition have no parent style.
>     o Paragraph, Character and Frame styles are all heritable.
>     o ANY style type which is heritable can declare no parent ("-None-").

> But a Character style also can declare inheritance from "No Character 
> Style", as well as from "-None-"; I cannot detect a difference in 
> operation.  Since a Character style is used to modify the character 
> attributes of a Paragraph style, do you know a good way to think about 
> this difference?
I only have character styles with "-None-", both, those from LibreOffice 
and my own.
Perhaps the developers have had a change of heart about this (?).
With me:
Version: 7.4.1.2 (x64) / LibreOffice Community
Build ID: 3c58a8f3a960df8bc8fd77b461821e42c061c5f0
CPU threads: 8; OS: Windows 10.0 Build 19044; UI render: Skia/Raster; 
VCL: win
Locale: de-DE (en_DE); UI: de-DE
Calc: CL

Best Regards
Harald
> Thanks again for your thoughts,
> John


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