RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: rtf import broken in 3.5.1?

@Tom

I'm not sure what you are asking, but this might be relevant:

In this 2010-12-09 document,
<http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc179199(office.14).aspx#BKMK_Changed>

It says that the "The RTF file format is no longer enhanced to include new features and 
functionality. Features and functionality that are new to Word 2010 and future versions of Word are 
lost when they are saved in RTF. In addition, Word 2010 supports a new converter interface based on 
Open XML Formats."

I suppose LibreOffice and OpenOffice could make the same statement concerning features and 
functionality of ODF (now or in the future) that do not map to RTF.

In other, more recent statements, there is assurance that RTF 1.9.1 is stable enough for meaningful 
reference from International Standards even though there is no International Standard for it.  
There is no indication that Saving documents as RTF and opening documents in RTF format is going 
away any time soon.  

As to the quality of RTF support in various software products, this tells us nothing.  Those who 
maintain implementations need to be consulted about problems in their handling of the format.  Bugs 
in the format specification are a different matter.  There are Microsoft forums for some 
discussions on both of those concerns:
<http://social.msdn.microsoft.com/Search/en-US/openspecifications?query=RTF&beta=0&ac=8> is a 
general search.  Using "Refine search, By Source:" on the left sidebar is interesting.


 - Dennis


MORE ANALYSIS

There are two different statements in the 2010-12-09 quoite, and I don't quite know why the 
"supports a new converter interface based on Open XML Formats" is mentioned.  However, there are 
ways for OOXML features and functions to be passed to RTF, as I mentioned.  I imagine there are or 
will be features and functions in OOXML (and ODF) that can't be embedded in RTF in any useful way.  
 Also, there is a difference between enhancing the RTF format and using the RTF formats for 
carrying extended material that is not in RTF format.

It would obviously be better to go to an XML-based format, such as OOXML/ODF as a vehicle for 
interchange in the future.  It seems to me that handling the OOXML features that are passed around 
in RTF requires the ability to faithfully accept OOXML as well [;<).

There is a 2011-03-17 statement to ISO considering RTF that assures stability and availability.  
The 2011-03-17 statement describes the acceptability of referencing RTF specification in 
International Standards even though there is no International Standard for RTF.  (The same 
considerations apply to the use of Zip in the ODF and OOXML specifications.)  RTF is referenced in 
the IS 29500 specification as a format that OOXML documents can link to, although IS 29500 does not 
include the RTF specification:

"The RTF Specification [for RTF] was last updated in 2008, and the RS Originator [Microsoft] 
anticipates no further updates.  However, the RTF Specification will remain under maintenance and 
Defect Reports [an ISO technical term] will be fully considered and discussed with SC34 [the OOXML 
ISO maintenance body]. ...

"The RS Originator is willing to consider editorial and non-substantive modifications of the RTF 
Specification during an associated IS 29500 [OOXML] balloting period, but would not make change 
which alter normative functions in this RTF Specification."

Other text indicates that the RTF specification is freely available and covered under Microsoft's 
Open Specification Promise, as I have already described.



-----Original Message-----
From: Tom Davies [mailto:tomdavies04@yahoo.co.uk] 
Sent: Friday, April 27, 2012 11:36
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: rtf import broken in 3.5.1?

Hi :)
Who is developing the Rtf format?  Who is maintaining it and working at any problems that arise 
with it?  
Regards from
Tom :)

--- On Fri, 27/4/12, Dennis E. Hamilton <dennis.hamilton@acm.org> wrote:

From: Dennis E. Hamilton <dennis.hamilton@acm.org>
Subject: RE: [libreoffice-users] Re: rtf import broken in 3.5.1?
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Cc: "'Milos Sramek'" <sramek.milos@gmail.com>
Date: Friday, 27 April, 2012, 18:38

@Milos,

I think a more reliable resource on the actual status of RTF can be found on Wikipedia at 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rich_Text_Format>.  I have no idea what format Tom Davies has in 
mind.  As far as I know it is not RTF.  

It appears that the RTF specification is quite stable.  The format has a built-in provisions for 
future extensions to specify how a implementations that do not recognize the extension should "fall 
back" to an understood alternative.  Although anyone could use that provision, it seems to me that 
some future extension will include carrying new features introduced in OOXML (ISO/IEC IS 29500) in 
RTF via XML-format inserts.  That provision is already defined for RTF.

The latest versions of the specification are quite comprehensive and are freely available.  There 
is even sample code for processing the RTF data stream.

To the best of my knowledge, RTF was not subject to any particular regulatory or legal problems.  

 - Dennis

MORE BACKGROUND AND RESOURCES

In the work undertaken to satisfy regulatory requirements in the EU and the United States, there 
was a concerted effort to provide and maintain documentation on interfaces and formats that would 
provide for interoperability with Microsoft systems. That effort spanned several years.  The 
technical-oversight body that was established to review that work has reported that the 
specifications are acceptable and that updating for current systems is happening in an acceptable 
way.  

RTF is not listed as one of those specifications.  The RTF specifications are made available 
separately from these sets: 
<http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/gg134032.aspx>.
<http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/gg134034.aspx>

Nevertheless, RTF is covered under the Microsoft Open Specification Promise.  See the end of the 
list at
<http://www.microsoft.com/openspecifications/en/us/programs/osp/office-file-formats/default.aspx>.

The Open Specification Promise itself and the span of its coverage can be found at 
<http://www.microsoft.com/openspecifications/en/us/programs/osp/default.aspx>.

(Those OpenDocument Format specification versions that Microsoft has participated in, such as ODF 
1.2, are also covered.)

Finally, Microsoft provides implementation notes that account for deviations and 
implementation-defined provisions in Microsoft's implementation of public standards.  Note the 
documents [MS-OI29500], [MS-OODF], and [MS-OODF2], among others, in this list:
<http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/gg134034.aspx>.




-----Original Message-----
From: Milos Sramek [mailto:sramek.milos@gmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, April 27, 2012 00:13
To: users@global.libreoffice.org
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: rtf import broken in 3.5.1?

Dňa 26.04.2012 21:28, Tom Davies  wrote / napísal(a):
> Hi :)
> What!!  An "agreed" 'Open' Standard that MS never quite implemented in the way they had promised 
> but still managed to push as the unifying standard that all other companies had to follow.  The 
> format they promised would have long term support so that historical archives and such could 
> reliably store documents for the long-term future in much the way that books have lasted.  The 
> one that no-one other than MS (hmm, not even MS) managed to implement because MS never quite got 
> around to publishing how they had messed up the format in any particular release.  The format 
> that resulted in court actions which MS apparently lost.  The one that MS is quietly dropping 
> support for and not developing any further so that all existing problems remain.
Dear Tom,

do you have any references to those court cases? Sounds very 
interesting. RTF is in Slovakia  one of the officialy approved standards 
to be used by public administration (besides pdf, odf and HTML). Of 
course, since MS is everywhere and everybody uses RTF. Information about 
those court trials would be a nice argument against RTF, the 
compatibility of which in LO/OO/OOO is really pain. This would show why 
is it so.

Milos
>   
>
> Luckily we have all learned our lesson and anyway MS wouldn't try to fool us the same way again, 
> right? lol ;)
> Regards from
> Tom :)
>
>
>
> --- On Thu, 26/4/12, Andreas Säger<villeroy@t-online.de>  wrote:
>
> From: Andreas Säger<villeroy@t-online.de>
> Subject: [libreoffice-users] Re: rtf import broken in 3.5.1?
> To: users@global.libreoffice.org
> Date: Thursday, 26 April, 2012, 20:06
>
> RTF never really worked in OOo nor LibO and there are reasons why:
> http://diaryproducts.net/for/geek/microsoft_rtf_specification_nightmare
>
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/rtf-import-broken-in-3-5-1-tp3877445p3942245.html
> Sent from the Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.


-- 
email&  jabber: sramek.milos@gmail.com


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