[libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2025-Oct-08

Present: Sahil, Jonathan, Eyal, Ted, Dhantel, John, Heiko
Comments: Regina, Stuart

Tickets/Topics

 * show outlines around selected objects like shapes, charts etc
   + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=168562
   + View > Boundaries should work for all objects incl. images, charts,
     shapes and not just for tables, frames and math-objects (Regina, Stuart)
   + marching ants are an indicator for copied objects (Heiko)
   + if the object has a border itself the selection might not
     be obvious (Heiko)
   + marching-ants-like frame just looks nicer; but not proposing animation,
     only a static frame (Sahil)
   + MSO connects the eight-dots with a straight frame (Heiko), OnlyOffice
     does too (Eyal)
   + no strong argument against the change, neither for it other than
     design (Eyal, Ted)
   + should be active depending on the boundaries option (Heiko)
   => do it

 * The default table pseudo-style should be master-slide-specific rather
   than template-global
   + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=168592
   + agree, styles should behave like styles (Heiko)
   + We currently have a default choice of one of the table pseudo-styles,
     which is the same for tables inserted on slides regardless of their
     master (Eyal)
   + The request is to keep for each master, a choice among the available
     table pseudo-styles; the request is orthogonal to whether or not
     the pseudo-styles are stored with the documents or not (Eyal)
   + For the long-term, would like a deep revamp of the table pseudo-style
     mechanism, and to have proper table styles (as per bug 151264), while
     this is a minor adjustment for the current state of affairs, hopefully
     requiring little effort (Eyal)
   + feels short-sighted to me; misses the point of storing/sharing TS,
     handling TS like any other style, and would be incompatible (Heiko)
   => comment

 * Extrinsic vs intrinsic paragraph direction (Eyal)
   + https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/2025/msg00088.html
   + DF RTL followed by "Clear DF" retains RTLness, aligns left
     + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=168537
   + "Clear Direct Formatting" clears RTL directionality
     + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=40496
   + Switching paragraph styles removes explicit text direction choice
     + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=58070
   + Auto-detect paragraph directions when they were not set explicitly
     + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=162120
   + Philosophically, the writing direction is _sometimes_ a property of
     the text itself, or implicit in it; but - not in every scenario and not
     for every written language. (Eyal)
     + in CJK, text direction is a formatting choice, but in RTL,
       text direction is a semantic property of the paragraph (Jonathan)
   + There are two "extreme" or pure approaches to this matter: Direction
     only from the text via auto-detection, with no override; or direction
     only via formatting/styling, ignoring the content completely. The
     second extreme approach is essentially the current approach of
     LibreOffice and of ODF. (Eyal)
   + Users have at least two interests not satisfied by our current
     approach: (Eyal)
     + The desire to avoid manually setting directions for text being pasted
       or imported from text(-ish) files.txt
     + The desire to avoid replicating styles, with the "same" styles needed
       both for RTL and LTR text
   + auto-detection as defined by Unicode vs. formatting as LibreOffice does
     + missing a use case for either of options (Heiko)
     + A related issue is the treatment of language as a property of the
       character style, which is currently what LibreOffice does, and that is
        wrong (Jonathan, Eyal)
   + Three suggestions for addressing user interests in auto-detection:
     + More far-reaching:
       Add another (horizontal) direction option for paragraphs: 'automatic',
       in addition to 'inherit', 'ltr', 'rtl'. It will be used by default
       for imported text files and perhaps for multi-paragrph stretches of
       important text. This will require a minor ODF change (Eyal, Jonathan)
       + ... with a single detection logic, as mandated by Unicode (Jonathan)
       + ... with several, or flexible, detection logics, as the Unicode
         detection logic is too simplistic (Eyal)
     + Less far-reaching:
       Add a command for applying auto-detection logic to paragraphs, and apply
       'rtl' or 'ltr' to them (as DF). auto-detection not "remembered" in the
       saved document (Heiko).
         + Changing the ODF standard would need consensus (Heiko)
         + Can always ask the ODF TC what they think (Jonathan)
     + re: vertical (CJK, Mongolian script), I don't think any changes
       are needed (Jonathan)
     + we have detection algorithms built-in for the language (Heiko)
   => no objection to the proposal


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