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Hi Michel,

Michel Renon píše v St 26. 09. 2012 v 13:45 +0200:

UI decisions should be taken based on facts, analysis, polls, statistics.

So this is the statistics I have at hand: Several people angry about a
feature, and nobody praising it.  Now, you are the first one, so please
tell me how much do you actually use Impress.  If you do, it is really
hard to believe that you haven't got bitten by this yet.  Also, I would
be most interested to hear how many times have you actually used the

We cannot measure everything, otherwise we wouldn't get much far because
all that time spent talking, and considering, and writing
specifications.  Much better approach is to try what seems good, and if
it does not work, ie. we get complaints constantly, not only a few
during a transition period, change it.

 Please note that Renaissance is 3-4 years old project.

A good idea will never be obsolete ;-)

Renaissance was a project, not an idea ;-)

I may be the first, but let me tell you that I find the new 
header/footer control *very useful* !

The control is extremely useful, indeed, only its presentation was
annoying, and Cedric fixed that (thanks Cedric!).  Now everybody is

And I wish we can use that idea for table edition and much more.

Come up with a proposal, and implement it, that's the best what you can
do.  Or try to enthuse a developer to implement it.

Why not allow users to enable/disable such appearing-controls by 
preferences ?
Everybody should be happy :
- beginners and average users won't see changes between versions
- power users may choose what they prefer

Every such setting brings you complexity that you have to maintain.  It
is error-prone, and the time to implement that is non-trivial too.  If
you find somebody who is willing to implement it, maybe, but I'd
encourage the guy/gal to spend the time in some more sensible way.

As a general point of view on this subject, I would say that it shows 
several problems in the design team (that's why I'm CCing to design list) :

- there is a lack of long-term vision for LO's UI/UX : a vision, a 
roadmap, with tenets. Some big users (administrations, companies...) 
need that kind of information so that they can plan training, migration [1].
For example :
    - should we use or avoid appearing / disappearing UI elements ?
    - should we use floating and/or docked panels ?
    When a decision is made, it should not change for several years (3-5)

Alex / Astron / Mirek / others [in alphabetical order :-)] all have
common vision, and it shows with 3.6 - it is the most beautiful open
source office suite around.  How comes you have not noticed that? ;-)

- a developer may decide to make big UI changes, just because he talked 
with few users : it's a complete by-pass of the existing UI process 
(whiteboards, proposals, discussions, vote) ; it may also bring some big 
inconsistencies [2]

Imagine a new volunteer who contributed code to improve something, do
you want to say him/her that "OK, but you haven't followed the PROCESS,
return to the drawing board."?  Do you think that he'll contribute the
next time?

Sorry, but no - this is what this ux-advise list is for.  If the code
looks good, and generally the idea looks plausible (even without
extensive UX testing), the best is to get it in, and then _cooperate_
with the author to make it even better, and fitting the overall vision.

I really appreciate how Mirek reacted on what I've done - concrete
points to improve (the toolbar that is too far, etc.).  That's something
actionable, and the way I'd like to see the design<->developers
cooperation in general - and I see it happening, thank you all!

- most important, it may changes/revert recent modifications --> users 
will be disturbed by those UI flip/flop (for example see previous 
changes between Rythmbox and Banshee in Ubuntu)

The best way is to test changes early - get the daily builds, test them,
and report anything that you see problematic there.

and the context of my feedback is that I have not enough 
time to work, propose on the UI/UX team, so it's just a little 

Well - talk is cheap ;-)  Please do get involved, the best is to improve
something that annoys you - an icon that is unpleasant, a drawing
artifact that shouldn't be there, etc.  Or just test the daily builds
from time to time, that won't take you that much time.


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