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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?




On 7 août 2014 16:56:33 CEST, Tom Davies <tomcecf@gmail.com> wrote:
>Hi :)
>Ahh, i understand now. You don't mean to be insulting and don't even
>notice when you do it.
>
>Your statement, "As for customer service, we don't do customer
>service.",
>well said. I'm not sure who the "we" is. It doesn't include almost
>anyone
>on this mailing list since the whole reason for this mailing list is to
>provide "customer service". It is what >most of us are here for.

But you are not providing customer service. nothing going on here is customer service. Do you have a set of scripts and processes you have been told to follow? Are people here paying for this service? No. And that's quite normal because this is not a place for customer service. It is however a place for users support done for free and delivered as a community, centered on a software that is not a product but a community delivered set of stable versions.

>
>Your "please describe, step by step". Actually we deal with people
>here.
>It's not like programming. There are >rarely logical steps.

People usually try to be logical when using an office suite. I asked you if you could describe problems encountered by people when trying to contribute to LibreOffice. Still no answer.


>
>A first response might be to point them to documentation that covers
>exactly what was asked. Ideally would summarise and simplify but would
>also ask for more detail and/or background information. So there are 3
>things that would seem to be vital but actually most of the time it's
>none
>of those that really helped. The main thing that helped was an
>acknowledgement that the question was heard by a human being. After
>that
>the question starts to emerge. It's best when several people each jump
>in
>with different types of answers or dealing with different aspect of
>what
>the question might be. The o.p. tends to start responding to 1 of
>those
>people and that tends to indicate the direction that the real question
>is
>about.
>
>For example a good answer to the question "My curtains are a bit
>charred.
>How do i stop them getting like that?" might be "Grab your bag and
>leave
>the building. Your house is on fire". Sometimes it takes a bit of a
>leap
>like that. It's seldom something that can fit neatly into step-by-step
>instructions.
>
>Your ""I was on the users list and not anywhere else" is not a valid
>argument" IS very belittling.
>When something is finally fixed and has been working well do you assume
>that the people who worked so hard on it >would then go and break it?

We do work very hard to break everything we build. Absolutely . And we do it for the sole reason of driving you nuts.

>
>I think most of us were guilty of assuming that once a thing was fixed
>and
>could be happily maintained with little or no effort that attention
>would
>move onto things that were still broken to fix them too. I can't
>believe
>so much work has gone into breaking something that was fine. If the
>web-designers really wanted to fix something how about helping all the
>international translators sort theirs out? How about moving into UI or
>UX
>design and lending a hand there. It's not like there is a shortage of
>interesting things to do!

Tom : you are becoming really funny to talk to.

Best,

Charles.

>Regards from
>Tom :)
>
>
>
>
>
>On 7 August 2014 14:25, Charles-H. Schulz <
>charles.schulz@documentfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> Quoting myself:
>>
>> "please describe, step by step, what is hard
>> about contributing or finding information about contributing."
>>
>> No answer to that question.
>>
>> As for customer service, we don't do customer service. Volunteers
>provide
>> users support. Users support in this case is not done as a
>consequence of a
>> purchase or any sort of commercial transaction. It changes quite a
>lot of
>> things. But as I wrote before: "I would never say that"...talking
>about
>> belittling the value or complexity of users support.
>>
>> Charles.
>>
>>
>> Le 07.08.2014 15:17, Tom Davies a écrit :
>>
>>> Hi :)
>>> That just highlights my points.
>>>
>>> If you really want to learn about customer support then i suggest
>>> taking a course in it. People put years of study into it. I'm not
>>> sure i could explain it all in a quick email. Perhaps you could
>>> explain C++ in a quick email?
>>>
>>> There is a bit more to it than you might expect. Try helping solve
>>> users problems on this mailing list for a while and i think you
>would
>>> be surprised.
>>>
>>> Regards from
>>> Tom :)
>>>
>>> On 7 August 2014 13:54, Charles-H. Schulz
>>> <charles.schulz@documentfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> Le 07.08.2014 14:28, Tom Davies a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> Hi :)
>>>>> No-Op has been a huge help to many people on this User Mailing
>>>>> List
>>>>> since the very early days of TDF. I know that user-support and
>>>>> customer service are kinda frowned on as being not much work.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would never say that.
>>>>
>>>> However it is the first point-of-contact between weeus and is a
>>>>> prime
>>>>> place to build people up and recruit them for this and other
>>>>> teams. I
>>>>> bet there are tons of people in various teams right now who
>>>>> wouldn't
>>>>> be there if it hadn't been for No-Op inspiring and pushing them
>>>>> into
>>>>> it.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I am a bit surprised by that but I could be wrong: Noop has had
>>>> quite a few negative comments for years and it did not strike me
>>>> that it could attract new volunteers or that he was helping people
>>>> to become volunteers.
>>>>
>>>> Instead of grumbling about how little work No-Op is doing how
>>>>> about
>>>>> doing more work yourself to answer the unanswered questions here.
>>>>> Maybe that way you could show us how little work it takes and we
>>>>> would
>>>>> learn to be better. Or maybe, just maybe you'd find out how much
>>>>> hard
>>>>> work it takes.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Let's do this then: what is hard to understand - I'm not saying
>>>> everything's easy, but please describe, step by step, what is hard
>>>> about contributing or finding information about contributing.
>>>>
>>>> The old web-page No-Op linked to was finally neat and tidy.
>>>>> Almost
>>>>> elegant! It was finally easy to see how to change anything such
>>>>> as
>>>>> language, OS, version. It was even quite a good way of showing
>>>>> off
>>>>> quite what variety LO offers but done in way that wasn't
>>>>> confusing or
>>>>> hidden. At last the buttons were proper buttons that could be
>>>>> pressed
>>>>> like real-world buttons.
>>>>>
>>>>> In chess games there is sometimes a dangerous moment when your
>>>>> position is so perfect that any move is going to detract from
>>>>> that
>>>>> perfection. There are times when you really need to pass and
>>>>> miss a
>>>>> go or lose the game. That appears to have happened to the
>>>>> downloads
>>>>> page.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So this download page has been around for 6 months. There was a
>>>> period of public development and public feedback collection of 3
>>>> months before that. Where were you? Where was Noop? (BTW: "I was on
>>>> the users list and not anywhere else" is not a valid argument).
>>>>
>>>> I was shocked by the downloads page today. The layout IS
>>>>> appalling
>>>>> and confusing. It's difficult to find how to get anything other
>>>>> than
>>>>> the default download. Then set choices kept getting forgotten.
>>>>> Tick-boxes used inappropriately and didn't work.
>>>>>
>>>>> Change just for the sake of change is not always positive.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> True. Criticizing something for 4 years does not make it right
>>>> either...
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Charles.
>>>>
>>>> Regards from
>>>> Tom :)
>>>>
>>>> On 7 August 2014 09:09, Charles-H. Schulz
>>>> <charles.schulz@documentfoundation.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Le 07.08.2014 09:55, NoOp a écrit :
>>>>
>>>> On 08/06/2014 10:01 AM, Florian Reisinger wrote:
>>>> Hi Tom,
>>>>
>>>> If we do not find the bugs in the fresh version, they won't be
>>>> resolved until the rename to Stable/Still. If less use Fresh, the
>>>> quality of the next stable will be lower.... Does this help?
>>>>
>>>> No. Basically what you and Sophie are saying is that 'we fully
>>>> expect
>>>> new/any user to download and use the "Fresh" branch by default so
>>>> that
>>>> LO (dev?) can find an resolve bugs in the 'new & improved & added
>>>> feature' version'. That's just crazy talk.
>>>>
>>>> No, that is how Free Software works. If you think it is crazy,
>>>> then
>>>> Ubuntu, Firefox, the Linux kernel, Debian, Fedora, Mint, VLC...
>>>> every
>>>> other project has that crazy way.
>>>>
>>>> I am somewhat astounded as I hear Charles complaining about funding
>>>> (rightly so, that's his job),
>>>>
>>>> huh? What is my job, according to you?
>>>>
>>>> users complaining about lack of bug fixes
>>>> w/dev's LO countering with 'we only have a certain amount of
>>>> resources &
>>>> have to prioritise' etc., etc. So why even have two branches to
>>>> begin with?
>>>>
>>>> Because branches do not cost more money than 10 or 1.
>>>>
>>>> The Fresh/Still nonsense is just that - nonsense. Here is a link to
>>>> the
>>>> internet archive from LO Download in 2013 Dec 31:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> <https://web.archive.org/web/20131231021742/http://www.
>>> libreoffice.org/download
>>>
>>>> [1]
>>>> [1]>
>>>>
>>>> On that page there is no "Fresh", "Stable", "Still" et al; there is
>>>> only
>>>> download defaulting to 4.1.4. and minor link options to change to
>>>> 4.0 or
>>>> 'Pre-releases' 4.2. That download page makes complete sense. Why on
>>>> earth the "private marketing list" change to the current nonsense?
>>>>
>>>> @TDF: Please just stop. Go back to the download page of December
>>>> 2013 &
>>>> keep it simple.
>>>>
>>>> @Noop: please stop complaining about changes. In 2010, you were
>>>> already complaining about the same things.
>>>>
>>>> IMO you should just drop the "Still" branch and concentrate your
>>>> dev
>>>> efforts on one *single* user release. The next time that I (as a
>>>> user)
>>>> hear that you've not enough resources to address a bug report I'll
>>>> have
>>>> to ask: so, how many devs are working on 'Fresh' v 'Still' v
>>>> 'Daily' v
>>>> 'Trunk' v EOL, etc? Can you not fix the bug because these folks are
>>>> spread so thin across the various "branches" that they can't
>>>> properly
>>>> concentrate on a baseline release fix?
>>>>
>>>> @Sophie/Florian: The admission that 'Fresh' is the default so that
>>>> bugs
>>>> will be identified earlier is, IMO, nuts (other words come to mind,
>>>> but
>>>> I'll try to keep this civilized). 'Hello World - take our RC
>>>> (X.Y.0) and
>>>> use it by default so that we can debug it' is not a good thing to
>>>> announce/promote here or elsewhere.
>>>>
>>>> @Charles: you keep asking for users on in this thread to suggest a
>>>> new
>>>> name ("Now: if you have ideas for new names, etc. you are welcome
>>>> to
>>>> contribute to our marketing team.) - no name is necessary, nor
>>>> should it
>>>> be necessary for users on this list to need to subscribe to the
>>>> marketing list to voice their concerns. You are TDF - instead
>>>> invite the
>>>> "private marketing list" members to participate in this thread,
>>>> this is
>>>> afterall a user & user support concern. BTW: for those that may
>>>> want to
>>>> do this anyway, just how does one gain access to this "private
>>>> marketing
>>>> list" that Sophie spoke of? How about providing a link to a
>>>> transcript
>>>> of the "private marketing list" contents so that others on this
>>>> "open
>>>> source" project can review?
>>>>
>>>> Do you think TDF is a company? TDF relies on volunteers. Our users
>>>> are our future contributors. We are not Wal Mart. You don't buy
>>>> things
>>>> from us and users are not customers. So yes, even if it sounds
>>>> crazy
>>>> to you, we do highly encourage users to join our various teams. As
>>>> for
>>>> the private marketing list, yes we do use this list mostly for
>>>> press/announcement preparations, otherwise news and text elements
>>>> would be disclosed before due date. How do you join this list? Good
>>>> question. By contributing, not by complaining, and by asking. And
>>>> if
>>>> that's not your call, we have plenty of other teams for you to join
>>>> :
>>>> https://www.libreoffice.org/community/get-involved/ [2] [2]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If that's still not your call, and you just want to use
>>>> LibreOffice... that's fine! we are happy that you do so.
>>>>
>>>> Bottom line is that I (and others) disagree with the "private
>>>> marketing
>>>> list" decision to go with the existing 'Fresh/Still/whatever'
>>>> download
>>>> page(s). Please consider simply rolling back to the Dec 2013 model.
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for your suggestion, but no, we won't. We have deployed
>>>> a
>>>> brand new website, asked for feedback on several completely open
>>>> and
>>>> public lists for several months. We feel good about the choices we
>>>> have made (although we are still toying with the Still branch name)
>>>> but no we won't come back to the December 2013, December 2010 or
>>>> December 10 C.E. because some think the past is always better than
>>>> the
>>>> future.
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Charles.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> To unsubscribe e-mail to: users+unsubscribe@global.libreoffice.org
>>>> Problems?
>>>>
>>>>
>http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
>>>
>>>> [3]
>>>> [3]
>>>> Posting guidelines + more:
>>>> http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette [4] [4]
>>>> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
>>>> [5] [5]
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and
>>>> cannot
>>>> be deleted
>>>>
>>>> Links:
>>>> ------
>>>> [1]
>>>>
>>>> https://web.archive.org/web/20131231021742/http://www.
>>> libreoffice.org/download
>>>
>>>> [1]
>>>> [2] https://www.libreoffice.org/community/get-involved/ [2]
>>>> [3]
>>>>
>>>>
>http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
>>>
>>>> [3]
>>>> [4] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette [4]
>>>> [5] http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/ [5]
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Links:
>>> ------
>>> [1]
>>> https://web.archive.org/web/20131231021742/http://www.
>>> libreoffice.org/download
>>> [2] https://www.libreoffice.org/community/get-involved/
>>> [3]
>http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
>>> [4] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
>>> [5] http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/users/
>>>
>>
>
>--
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>Problems?
>http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
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>deleted

--
Envoyé de mon téléphone avec Kaiten Mail. Excusez la brièveté.

--
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References:
[libreoffice-users] LibreOffice Still?NoOp <glgxg@sbcglobal.net>
[libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?arakish <rmfrunyan@gmail.com>
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?"\"J. Van Brimmer\"" <jerry.vb@gmail.com>
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?Florian Reisinger <florei@libreoffice.org>
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?Tom Davies <tomcecf@gmail.com>
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?Florian Reisinger <florei@libreoffice.org>
[libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?NoOp <glgxg@sbcglobal.net>
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?"Charles-H. Schulz" <charles.schulz@documentfoundation.org>
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?Tom Davies <tomcecf@gmail.com>
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?"Charles-H. Schulz" <charles.schulz@documentfoundation.org>
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?"Charles-H. Schulz" <charles.schulz@documentfoundation.org>
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?Tom Davies <tomcecf@gmail.com>
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