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Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?


Quoting myself:

"please describe, step by step, what is hard
about contributing or finding information about contributing."

No answer to that question.

As for customer service, we don't do customer service. Volunteers provide users support. Users support in this case is not done as a consequence of a purchase or any sort of commercial transaction. It changes quite a lot of things. But as I wrote before: "I would never say that"...talking about belittling the value or complexity of users support.

Charles.


Le 07.08.2014 15:17, Tom Davies a écrit :
Hi :)
That just highlights my points.

If you really want to learn about customer support then i suggest
taking a course in it. People put years of study into it. I'm not
sure i could explain it all in a quick email. Perhaps you could
explain C++ in a quick email?

There is a bit more to it than you might expect. Try helping solve
users problems on this mailing list for a while and i think you would
be surprised.

Regards from
Tom :)

On 7 August 2014 13:54, Charles-H. Schulz
<charles.schulz@documentfoundation.org> wrote:

Le 07.08.2014 14:28, Tom Davies a écrit :

Hi :)
No-Op has been a huge help to many people on this User Mailing
List
since the very early days of TDF. I know that user-support and
customer service are kinda frowned on as being not much work.

I would never say that.

However it is the first point-of-contact between weeus and is a
prime
place to build people up and recruit them for this and other
teams. I
bet there are tons of people in various teams right now who
wouldn't
be there if it hadn't been for No-Op inspiring and pushing them
into
it.

I am a bit surprised by that but I could be wrong: Noop has had
quite a few negative comments for years and it did not strike me
that it could attract new volunteers or that he was helping people
to become volunteers.

Instead of grumbling about how little work No-Op is doing how
about
doing more work yourself to answer the unanswered questions here.
Maybe that way you could show us how little work it takes and we
would
learn to be better. Or maybe, just maybe you'd find out how much
hard
work it takes.

Let's do this then: what is hard to understand - I'm not saying
everything's easy, but please describe, step by step, what is hard
about contributing or finding information about contributing.

The old web-page No-Op linked to was finally neat and tidy.
Almost
elegant! It was finally easy to see how to change anything such
as
language, OS, version. It was even quite a good way of showing
off
quite what variety LO offers but done in way that wasn't
confusing or
hidden. At last the buttons were proper buttons that could be
pressed
like real-world buttons.

In chess games there is sometimes a dangerous moment when your
position is so perfect that any move is going to detract from
that
perfection. There are times when you really need to pass and
miss a
go or lose the game. That appears to have happened to the
downloads
page.

So this download page has been around for 6 months. There was a
period of public development and public feedback collection of 3
months before that. Where were you? Where was Noop? (BTW: "I was on
the users list and not anywhere else" is not a valid argument).

I was shocked by the downloads page today. The layout IS
appalling
and confusing. It's difficult to find how to get anything other
than
the default download. Then set choices kept getting forgotten.
Tick-boxes used inappropriately and didn't work.

Change just for the sake of change is not always positive.

True. Criticizing something for 4 years does not make it right
either...

Best,

Charles.

Regards from
Tom :)

On 7 August 2014 09:09, Charles-H. Schulz
<charles.schulz@documentfoundation.org> wrote:

Le 07.08.2014 09:55, NoOp a écrit :

On 08/06/2014 10:01 AM, Florian Reisinger wrote:
Hi Tom,

If we do not find the bugs in the fresh version, they won't be
resolved until the rename to Stable/Still. If less use Fresh, the
quality of the next stable will be lower.... Does this help?

No. Basically what you and Sophie are saying is that 'we fully
expect
new/any user to download and use the "Fresh" branch by default so
that
LO (dev?) can find an resolve bugs in the 'new & improved & added
feature' version'. That's just crazy talk.

No, that is how Free Software works. If you think it is crazy,
then
Ubuntu, Firefox, the Linux kernel, Debian, Fedora, Mint, VLC...
every
other project has that crazy way.

I am somewhat astounded as I hear Charles complaining about funding
(rightly so, that's his job),

huh? What is my job, according to you?

users complaining about lack of bug fixes
w/dev's LO countering with 'we only have a certain amount of
resources &
have to prioritise' etc., etc. So why even have two branches to
begin with?

Because branches do not cost more money than 10 or 1.

The Fresh/Still nonsense is just that - nonsense. Here is a link to
the
internet archive from LO Download in 2013 Dec 31:


<https://web.archive.org/web/20131231021742/http://www.libreoffice.org/download
[1]
[1]>

On that page there is no "Fresh", "Stable", "Still" et al; there is
only
download defaulting to 4.1.4. and minor link options to change to
4.0 or
'Pre-releases' 4.2. That download page makes complete sense. Why on
earth the "private marketing list" change to the current nonsense?

@TDF: Please just stop. Go back to the download page of December
2013 &
keep it simple.

@Noop: please stop complaining about changes. In 2010, you were
already complaining about the same things.

IMO you should just drop the "Still" branch and concentrate your
dev
efforts on one *single* user release. The next time that I (as a
user)
hear that you've not enough resources to address a bug report I'll
have
to ask: so, how many devs are working on 'Fresh' v 'Still' v
'Daily' v
'Trunk' v EOL, etc? Can you not fix the bug because these folks are
spread so thin across the various "branches" that they can't
properly
concentrate on a baseline release fix?

@Sophie/Florian: The admission that 'Fresh' is the default so that
bugs
will be identified earlier is, IMO, nuts (other words come to mind,
but
I'll try to keep this civilized). 'Hello World - take our RC
(X.Y.0) and
use it by default so that we can debug it' is not a good thing to
announce/promote here or elsewhere.

@Charles: you keep asking for users on in this thread to suggest a
new
name ("Now: if you have ideas for new names, etc. you are welcome
to
contribute to our marketing team.) - no name is necessary, nor
should it
be necessary for users on this list to need to subscribe to the
marketing list to voice their concerns. You are TDF - instead
invite the
"private marketing list" members to participate in this thread,
this is
afterall a user & user support concern. BTW: for those that may
want to
do this anyway, just how does one gain access to this "private
marketing
list" that Sophie spoke of? How about providing a link to a
transcript
of the "private marketing list" contents so that others on this
"open
source" project can review?

Do you think TDF is a company? TDF relies on volunteers. Our users
are our future contributors. We are not Wal Mart. You don't buy
things
from us and users are not customers. So yes, even if it sounds
crazy
to you, we do highly encourage users to join our various teams. As
for
the private marketing list, yes we do use this list mostly for
press/announcement preparations, otherwise news and text elements
would be disclosed before due date. How do you join this list? Good
question. By contributing, not by complaining, and by asking. And
if
that's not your call, we have plenty of other teams for you to join
:
https://www.libreoffice.org/community/get-involved/ [2] [2]

If that's still not your call, and you just want to use
LibreOffice... that's fine! we are happy that you do so.

Bottom line is that I (and others) disagree with the "private
marketing
list" decision to go with the existing 'Fresh/Still/whatever'
download
page(s). Please consider simply rolling back to the Dec 2013 model.

Thank you for your suggestion, but no, we won't. We have deployed
a
brand new website, asked for feedback on several completely open
and
public lists for several months. We feel good about the choices we
have made (although we are still toying with the Still branch name)
but no we won't come back to the December 2013, December 2010 or
December 10 C.E. because some think the past is always better than
the
future.

Best,

Charles.

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[1]
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[3]

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Links:
------
[1]
https://web.archive.org/web/20131231021742/http://www.libreoffice.org/download
[2] https://www.libreoffice.org/community/get-involved/
[3] http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
[4] http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
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Follow-Ups:
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?Tom Davies <tomcecf@gmail.com>
References:
[libreoffice-users] LibreOffice Still?NoOp <glgxg@sbcglobal.net>
[libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?arakish <rmfrunyan@gmail.com>
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?"\"J. Van Brimmer\"" <jerry.vb@gmail.com>
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?Florian Reisinger <florei@libreoffice.org>
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?Tom Davies <tomcecf@gmail.com>
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?Florian Reisinger <florei@libreoffice.org>
[libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?NoOp <glgxg@sbcglobal.net>
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?"Charles-H. Schulz" <charles.schulz@documentfoundation.org>
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?Tom Davies <tomcecf@gmail.com>
Re: [libreoffice-users] Re: LibreOffice Still?"Charles-H. Schulz" <charles.schulz@documentfoundation.org>
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