Re: [libreoffice-users] LibreLogo tutorial

Hi :)
Yes, i agree that some things are not so easy to do in other languages
or on other keyboards so that is another good reason for people to
adapt any rules to fit with whatever is easier imo.  Rules should
really be just "guidelines" imo.

As for html and anything else that corrupts layout a bit, again there
are clearly limits on how much extra work is worth putting in just to
try to get closer to rules when there are so many people out there who
either ignore the rules or work to a different rule-book anyway.  I
sometimes use search&replace to make sure that there is a " "
between full-stops, and exclamation marks, and questions marks and so
on.  I only do that if i'm editing the html in a text-editor, and only
if i have time, and only if i remember, and only if i can be bothered
= so i don't do it often either! ;)  Double-spaces in my coding help
me edit the code later, but i don't always put them in there anyway.
I think it's important for people to have their own style.  Rules are
only useful nowadays if people are allowed to ignore them because it
so often happens that rules that work well in one place really don't
help at all, or are even a severe and useless hindrance in another =
as you point out.

Many people who have been brought up to speak English and use it all
the time and probably don't know any other language still make a lot
more mistakes with it than i've seen on this mailing list.  Everyone
makes mistakes.  Often it's the harshest critics who make the most
appalling mistakes themselves - sometimes it's because they struggle
to understand things however carefully it's been written.  My emails
are far from perfect.  I try not to but i often make mistakes.

It is wise to get someone to proof-read documentation.  It's what the
Documentation Team here do, even the professional or experienced or
just talented writers in there.  Even if it is full of errors people
still find it useful so it's worth publishing even if you are certain
it's full of errors.  People are likely to point out errors anyway,
which helps the writer edit it to be better even though the way most
people criticise is quite hurtful.  Asking people here to proof-read
was brilliant and nicely done!  :))

Regards from
Tom :)




On 6 December 2015 at 17:37, Kolbjørn Stuestøl <kolbjoern@stuestoel.no> wrote:
> I agree in that typography is important. But there are some differences from
> language to language.
>
> One common problem is that the keyboard in fact does not have the double
> quotation mark. The Shift 2 key combination is (in Norwegian at least) the
> symbol for inches and nothing else. 50" TV.
> If you use the " in Writer, it becomes « in the start of the quotation and »
> in the end of it. If I want to write the inch symbol I have to undo the
> printing (Ctrl Z).
>
> Another common problem is that two spaces after full stop is boring in HTML
> coding. If I use more than one space somewhere in the text is printed as a
> single space. To get double spaces I have to add "&nbsp;": <p>Period.
> &nbsp;Full stop</p>. Therefore, I think, you hardly find a web side using
> double spacing in a text.
>
> More than one line (gap) between paragraphs is easier.
>
> You prefer Writer. So do I and the local printing works we are using.
>
> And yes, there is a difference writing e-mails and books.
>
> And I agree with you in that this list is fantastic. I am not qualified to
> say anything about the quality of English used here, but the helpers who is
> proofreading my documents found lots of errors in my English. Some
> misunderstandings, some grammatical errors, misprints, and other errors.
> better ways to say it. (The lover part -> the lower part or  count ->
> count). And of course often better wordings.
>
>
> Kolbjørn
>
>
> Den 06.12.2015 15:51, Tom Davies skreiv:
> > Hi :)
> > In emails i tend to use double-quotes, ", when i am quoting someone or
> > something and i use single-quotes, ', for sarcasm or when reality is
> > radically different or even opposite to theory or common belief.
> >
> > For example, when i say something 'should' work i usually mean that it
> > probably will work but that it wouldn't be a huge surprise if it
> > doesn't.  Sometimes i mean that we often get told that it does work
> > but that many of us either struggle with it or find that it doesn't
> > work - when i mean this i usually explain what i really mean.
> > I hadn't thought about how other people use them.  Mostly i find that
> > people don't follow any rules and even mix and match within even a
> > single document they wrote.  I've even seen people use single quotes
> > at the start of a quote and end it with a double quote, and vice-versa
> > - again within a single document.
> >
> > I really like the Norwegians use of << but i find those sorts of marks
> > quite bulky and potentially confusing as possibly being a bit of
> > coding - although context quickly solves that :)
> >
> >
> > I agree with Anne-ology about double-spaces after a full-stop making
> > it easier to skim-read.  I have a feeling it should be only a little
> > more than a single space, even a space and a half-space might be too
> > much, but it's difficult to get that sort of finesse these days.  A
> > single space feels wrong to me.  So i use a double-space because it's
> > the easiest way to get as comfortable a layout as i reasonably can.
> >
> > A lot of writing i've seen outside of this mailing list uses single
> > spaces or even no spaces at all after full-stops and that sort of
> > thing often results in commas having more emphasis than full-stops,
> > especially when people use double-spaces after commas or when "full
> > justify" messes up spacing.
> >
> > There is so much confusion about all this that i've seen a lot of
> > people out there starting a new paragraph for every sentence.  Some
> > people nowadays seem to do that even when the sentences follow on from
> > each other and don't add anything new.  Perhaps it's people thinking
> > in bullet-points but then getting a bit carried away.
> >
> >
> > Personally i have even started using double or triple gaps between
> > paragraphs that are about a totally different topic.  On the rare
> > occasion i do in-line replies (rather than top-posting) i try to
> > create an extra gap between my response and the bit i am responding
> > too.  Emails tend to get so mangled that it's sometimes difficult to
> > figure out who said what.  Hopefully you can see examples of my
> > double-gaps between the section about single and double quotes and the
> > section where i agree with Anne-ology about double-spaces after
> > full-stops, then again before the beginning of this paragraph.
> >
> >
> > With the prevalence of Microsoft Word, standards seem to have
> > plummeted.  Now that almost anyone can produced printed documents the
> > expertise, knowledge and skills of dedicated typists and typesetters
> > has been lost or ignored or thrown out.  For a time various companies
> > tried to enforce "in-house styles" or branding guidelines.  Word often
> > seems to make that difficult even if companies take the time and
> > trouble to make proper templates and set-up their own styles.
> >
> > One of the many reasons i prefer Writer is because the resulting
> > documents look much more consistent and more professional than the
> > results i have seen from people using Word.  It takes much less effort
> > to look good - and it's so much easier to have an "in-house style".
> >
> >
> > I think the old rules that don't work so well with modern computer
> > systems are too out-dated.  Newer rules seem clumsy or less "well
> > thought out" or difficult to implement.  I think it's time for us to
> > find new rules that do work for us.  In doing so i think it's well
> > worth noticing what the old rules were trying to do and what problems
> > they were trying to overcome.  That might help us figure out how to
> > improve our own personal rules and styles, where to stick with current
> > fashions and where it might be better to start introducing our own
> > personal styles or flair.
> >
> > Few people these days follow the rules, even rules they themselves
> > set, so why should we?  I think old rules and copying ideas from each
> > other can help us develop new ways.  Some wont work at first but some
> > might help us make documents that are easier to read and that look
> > better.
> >
> >
> > Everyone on this mailing list seems to 'naturally' have a good style.
> > MUCH better than i have seen out there in the business world and in
> > charities in England.  The standard of English is much higher here
> > too, especially from people who seem to think they are not much good
> > at writing English.  Sometimes odd little mistakes or typos make
> > things interesting and "give food for thought" but always they are
> > better than much of what i hear from English people outside of this
> > mailing list.
> > Regards to all from
> > Tom :)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 6 December 2015 at 13:20, Kolbjørn Stuestøl <kolbjoern@stuestoel.no>
> > wrote:
> > > I have uploaded "version 2" of the LibreLogo tutorial.
> > > Thanks to Bran Barker and anne-ology for proofreading and others for
> > > commenting.
> > > I have learned a lot of typography and some English.  :-)
> > >
> > > Kolbjørn
>
>
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