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Le samedi 19 mai 2012 à 12:08 +0100, Ian Lynch a écrit :
On 19 May 2012 10:22, Italo Vignoli <> wrote:

Jean Weber wrote:

Please note that Apache OpenOffice also has active developers who have
not yet been granted "committer" status, so the numbers are not
directly comparable. I don't know how many non-committer developers
there are at AOO. They submit patches which, if approved, are then
committed by someone with the relevant authority.

Most of these hidden developers are coming from IBM China, and they will
not get the committer status before graduation, as otherwise it would be
clear that AOO is a hidden IBM development project as the "diversity" of
the developer base is missing (IBM developers would be well over 80%,
while now they are around 40%).

Apache committers do so on an individual basis but it is inevitable that if
many of them are from a single organisation, that organisation has
potential influence. In that sense it is not really different from Sun in
the earlier days of OOo. In that context, ASF is more like the Foundation
many people wanted for OOo in those days that never happened.

"That never happened"?  Where are you posting your message Ian? :-) What
do you think the LibreOffice project's goal were and are?  The only
reason we now have an Apache OO project is that Oracle and IBM worked
out a deal that suits them, but didn't suit the largest majority of the
community. You are thus right to point out that AOO is not really
different from Sun in the earlier days of OOo: that project is
controlled or has a majority of developers and contributors coming from
one corporate sponsor. We could all live with that for several years,
but ultimately we saw the consequences of such a choice, and decided to
move on. 

What makes me nervous, is that all this is done with the complacent
supervision of ASF mentors, who perfectly know the situation and hide
the issue with statements about a "diverse" development project.

All mentors can do is apply the "Apache Way" in the particular
circumstances. PPMC members vote in committers and many, probably the great
majority of current commiters are nothing to do with IBM. 

I disagree. Just look at the list of committers and you will see that a
sizeable chunk of them work for IBM. That list of committers is
published on the Apache wiki, if I'm not mistaken. 

They could vote
against IBM staffers becoming committers but I don't think that is likely.
Most will see that the value of the additional engineering resource coupled
to the Apache Way out-weighs any disadvantage of having potential influence
on the direction of development from IBM. Anyone is free to fork the code
base produced.

Yes, and so we (LibreOffice) did do that even before we had to ask the
question about IBM and Apache OO. Problem solved from our end, although
it's important to remember that IBM and anybody else is welcome to join
the LibreOffice project. 

Anyway, as soon as AOO will graduate, we will know the number of these
hidden developers. What does not change is the number of commits.

We should stick with Ohloh figures, because they are independent from
both projects, and reflect the actual reality.

I would also avoid speculations on AOO hidden developers, because this
is their problem and not our problem.

The only real problem is a splitting of resources into 2 code bases so
quite a bit of overlapping duplication of effort. That is just a fact of
life since it seems impossible to resolve the licensing issues. 

I tend to be more optimistic that you on this, but I'm still young and

I hope both projects can maximise the number of developers because within
the internal political constraints it provides the most resource into the
FOSS ecosystem.

You might add as well that a keyword in the future will be the
differentiation in terms of products and codebases. 

-- Italo Vignoli - mob +39.348.5653829 - VoIP skype italovignoli - gtalk

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