LibreOffice Base 7.0 has not got Firebird engine without experimental mode

Hello Everybody,
I was checking out LibreOffice 7.0 Beta 1 when I saw something new that
isn't reported in the release Notes. In v6.4.4 with experimental mode
turned off- there were two embeded engines available - HSQLDB and Firebird.
HSQLDB was the default. When Experimental mode was turned on, firebird
became the default and the migration wizard popped when trying to open a
HSQLDB embedded database

But in v7.0 Beta 1 I find that if Experimental Mode is turned Off, there is
no Firebird engine. HSQLDB is the only choice. When the experimental mode
is turned on, the functionality is same as v6.4.4.

It maybe a bug or it may be done knowingly. Where should I ask this?

Pulkit Krishna

Hi Pulkit,

I was checking out LibreOffice 7.0 Beta 1 when I saw something new that
isn't reported in the release Notes. In v6.4.4 with experimental mode
turned off- there were two embeded engines available - HSQLDB and Firebird.

Couldn't be:
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127180

HSQLDB was the default. When Experimental mode was turned on, firebird
became the default and the migration wizard popped when trying to open a
HSQLDB embedded database

Wizard had been set to experimental a little bit earlier, but there are
so much (little) bugs, which make it easier to work with HSQLDB than
with Firebird. And the bugs arent solved for about a year ...

You have to turn experimental mode on since LO 6.4.3.2 for creating a
new Firebird database.

Regards

Robert

Hello Robert,

You have to turn experimental mode on since LO 6.4.3.2 for creating a
new Firebird database.

Do you mean that there is Firebird available in v6.4.0 & 6.4.2 for creating
a new database without experimental mode and from v6.4.3, it has been moved
to experimental mode?

Pulkit Krishna

Hi Pulkit,

You have to turn experimental mode on since LO 6.4.3.2 for creating a
new Firebird database.

Do you mean that there is Firebird available in v6.4.0 & 6.4.2 for creating
a new database without experimental mode and from v6.4.3, it has been moved
to experimental mode?

Yes, that's right. I have just had a look when it happend before writing
the first mail.

Regards

Robert

Well then it would lead to confusion. I think I should add a note in Base
Guide 6.4 about it.
Pulkit Krishna

Hi,

I think we should advise not to use embedded Firebird databases as there where a lot of problems with it.

That is why it is experimental again...

/Rob

Hi Pulkit,

Yes, this change was made in master and also pushed into the 6.4.4
branch - it was deliberate.

The reason is that the embedded Firebird support code just too much of a
liability at the moment, and virtually no one is fixing the bugs that
its introduction has created, or the bugs for features that one would
expect to see in such an engine, but which haven't been implemented in
the LO code. It was a whole sorry mess, just waiting to explode in the
faces of unwitting users, so it was felt better to switch it back to
experimental, that way, if people hose their data with it, they will
have made the decision knowingly, rather than by default building their
hopes up and then kicking them where it hurts.

At least with embedded hsqldb 1.8.0, we know where all of the problems
lie, and the documentation doesn't need to be rewritten for a new db
engine that doesn't deliver on the promises our marketing communication
was so keen to tout (the engine itself is actually pretty capable, its
just the implementation within LO that is somewhat lacking).

Alex

Hi Pulkit,

Yes, this change was made in master and also pushed into the 6.4.4
branch - it was deliberate.

The reason is that the embedded Firebird support code just too much of a
liability at the moment, and virtually no one is fixing the bugs that
its introduction has created, or the bugs for features that one would
expect to see in such an engine, but which haven't been implemented in
the LO code. It was a whole sorry mess, just waiting to explode in the
faces of unwitting users, so it was felt better to switch it back to
experimental, that way, if people hose their data with it, they will
have made the decision knowingly, rather than by default building their
hopes up and then kicking them where it hurts.

At least with embedded hsqldb 1.8.0, we know where all of the problems
lie, and the documentation doesn't need to be rewritten for a new db
engine that doesn't deliver on the promises our marketing communication
was so keen to tout (the engine itself is actually pretty capable, its
just the implementation within LO that is somewhat lacking).

Alex

Given this, what not update HSQLDB from 1.8 to 2.5? We were using this version on the daily builds and later the alpha and beta version back in 2005 and 2006. There has to be a way to convert from an embedded database with version 1.8 to connecting to the database with JDBC with version 2.5 that is not really difficult. The main problem is with moving the queries, forms, and reports.

Dan

Given this, what not update HSQLDB from 1.8 to 2.5?

IIRC there is a major architectural change to the HSQLDB code from 1.x
to 2.x and the cost of making the code changes for an embedded mode
(even the HSLQDB 1.8 is a customiazed release when used embedded in a
Base file) would be very high.
There is a secondary reason; to get away from an in-memory only DBMS
(which HSQLDB still is) anda tertiary reason to get away from Java if
possible, but of course that also means dumping the current Report
Builder for some non-Java replacement.

We were using this

Succinctly, and precisely put, thanks Drew.

Additionally, and something that many Linux only users often forget.
This whole shebang is supposed to run on multiple OSes.

Apple's store certification policy does not like anything that requires
Java, calls to Java or even mentions Java. This is why hsqldb is not
supported in the LibreOffice Vanilla product, and no Java functionality
is supported (which sucks as a user, but, OK, this is Apple).

If you want to use LibreOffice with any sort of Java functionality on
macOS, you have to use the LO TDF download. It is secondary to the issue
of why not change to a more recent version of hsqldb engine, but it is
important. It does however tend to favour an end goal of having a
product that does not have to rely on Java to provide core functionality
(some would even argue that it is not core functionality).

There is also the fact that Oracle's JDK has changed, not only in the
way calls are made to the required components when a JVM is
instantiated, but also in the licensing. This represents an extra
developer hurdle to contend with when trying to get LO to function with
an uptodate integrated version of the latest hsqldb engine. As I recall,
a single developer has already looked twice at starting with coding the
integration, but the barrier to entry is just too high for one person to
take on alone.

Alex

Succinctly, and precisely put, thanks Drew.

Additionally, and something that many Linux only users often forget.
This whole shebang is supposed to run on multiple OSes.

Apple's store certification policy does not like anything that requires
Java, calls to Java or even mentions Java. This is why hsqldb is not
supported in the LibreOffice Vanilla product, and no Java functionality
is supported (which sucks as a user, but, OK, this is Apple).

If you want to use LibreOffice with any sort of Java functionality on
macOS, you have to use the LO TDF download. It is secondary to the issue
of why not change to a more recent version of hsqldb engine, but it is
important. It does however tend to favour an end goal of having a
product that does not have to rely on Java to provide core functionality
(some would even argue that it is not core functionality).

There is also the fact that Oracle's JDK has changed, not only in the
way calls are made to the required components when a JVM is
instantiated, but also in the licensing. This represents an extra
developer hurdle to contend with when trying to get LO to function with
an uptodate integrated version of the latest hsqldb engine. As I recall,
a single developer has already looked twice at starting with coding the
integration, but the barrier to entry is just too high for one person to
take on alone.

Alex

Hi,

The first question is: after set first page's layout to "Only right", the age number display abnormal.

Steps to reproduce:

1. Make a new Writer documnet, and input some text in the page;

2. At the end of the text, press enter to make a new blank line;

3. Click menu Insert > More Breaks > Manu Break, select Page break and First Page and click OK;

4. Now there are two pages in the document. In the second page, click menu Insert > Page Break;

5. Now there are three pages in the document. Go to the Page styles Deck, right click Default Style > Modify > footer > Footer on, click OK; then at the bottom of the third page add page numbers;

6. Now page 1 and page 3 had page numbers(the number is 1 and 3);

7. Go to the Page styles Deck, right click First Page > Modify > Page > Page layout > Only right, click OK;

8. Now there are 3 pages in the document and the 3rd page's number is 4.

I think that "Only right" means that the page should be odd (in a whole book). And, I can export four pages file with the option of "Export automatically inserted blank pages" in the PDF export dialog. But, I don't know if the operation was right or ok. And, if Writer could show the blank page in the documents.

The second question is: I can not set a page to First Page style directly. I have to set it with above steps.

I am making a video tutorials about "How to use LibreOffice to typeset an entire book"(https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1rE411X7oz), but I don't know how to explain these two questions. I think it must be some kind of rules of use and not bugs.
Can someone please guide me?

That's all.

Thanks~

Yichuang驿窗