reorganising and rewriting it as well as updating to v5.3, I hope it will
be a useful starting point for v6.0 even if it's not published for a 5.x
version.
BTW, my name is not hyphenated. Hollis is my middle name; Weber is my
surname.
--Jean
Hi Cathy,
It can take many words to explain a relatively simple concept when
wording in the program itself is unclear or even misleading. Is there a
mechanism for giving feedback to the developers about changing some of
the wording within the program? If so, how does that work?As to raising the issue of unclear or even misleading wording in the
help files, my _*guess*_ would be, that for very specific entries in the
help files you could raise an issue on Bugzilla:
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/QA/BugReport
or contact Oliver for assistance.
Indeed issues are the proper way to suggest better wording.
You may add needsUXEval to the keywords field, so that the UX team,
deciding on improvements, finds your proposal easily.
thanks for your help!
Cor
Hi Olivier,
Thank you for the explanation. It is impressive to see that it is available (in part) in 68 languages.
I have been using LibreOffice since last September. In that time, I have barely used Help because it is so hard to find the information I am looking for. Since it seems to offer little value, I have been wondering why so much work has been going into developing it.
Then, I read below where you say "Because it is part of the application..." This made no sense since it is not part of the application but rather a website. This made me wonder if I was missing something.
So, I went to the download page and noticed that there is a file called "Help for offline use." It is possible that I saw this before but paid no attention because I am always online.
Finally, I downloaded the file and realized what I have been missing.
Perhaps I am a dunderhead but if I missed the Help files, perhaps others have. I would strongly recommend that the download page be clearer about what the file contains. Can this feedback be passed on to the appropriate people or should I submit it somewhere?
On another note, I have been wondering how to find information about the project as a whole. Then I looked at the blog post you linked to and found pages with some of the information I have been looking for. I would like to suggest that new members like me be referred to that site as an introduction to the LibreOffice project.
By the way, I noticed an archived tender (July 2016) to redesign the download page. Does anyone know if that means that it has already been redesigned and that it will not be changed for a while?
Thanks again.
Cathy
Hello Cathy
Hi Olivier,
(snip)
Finally, I downloaded the file and realized what I have been missing.
Perhaps I am a dunderhead but if I missed the Help files, perhaps others
have. I would strongly recommend that the download page be clearer about
what the file contains. Can this feedback be passed on to the
appropriate people or should I submit it somewhere?
No dunderhead at all and thanks again for raising the issue. This is an
old issue and people keep bypassing the download of the Help. I know the
Help is not downloaded because it pulls a string in the forums and
mailing lists on very basic subjects, typical of those who do not access
a Help, for whatever reason.
On another note, I have been wondering how to find information about the
project as a whole. Then I looked at the blog post you linked to and
found pages with some of the information I have been looking for. I
would like to suggest that new members like me be referred to that site
as an introduction to the LibreOffice project.
We keep a wiki for that purpose. But it requires permanent reordering
and addition/deletion/update of hundreds of pages, permanently.
We also have our main website (www.libreoffice.org) with information on
the project.
By the way, I noticed an archived tender (July 2016) to redesign the
download page. Does anyone know if that means that it has already been
redesigned and that it will not be changed for a while?
The download page has been reworked recently.
Kind regards
Hi Olivier,
Thanks again for the responses.
If this has been a problem for a while, I am puzzled about why it has not been fixed. Are you aware of a reason why the download page cannot be re-worded now?
To be clear, what are you saying is the best source of information for people who are new to this and want to learn about the overall LibreOffice project? Are you saying that the wiki is not useful because so much work needs to be done on it?
As long as I am asking questions, here is one more: What is the Pootle server?
Cheers,
Cathy
Hi Cor,
Just to be clear, I was not expressing problems with the Help files. In fact, I was not even aware that they exist when I wrote this.
Thank you!
Cathy
Hi Cathy,
Just to be clear, I was not expressing problems with the Help files. In
fact, I was not even aware that they exist when I wrote this.
In know that you was talking about the user interface. That is what my
comment is about too 
Hi Cathy,
Hi Olivier,
Thanks again for the responses.
If this has been a problem for a while, I am puzzled about why it has
not been fixed. Are you aware of a reason why the download page cannot
be re-worded now?
It depends on which download page you're talking about. The download
page on the main website is reworked by infrastructure, design and
marketing project, together with the donate page. It's currently being
improved before being translated. For the download page of the
documentation project, the page is quite new, and maybe no volunteer had
time to work on it for the moment.
To be clear, what are you saying is the best source of information for
people who are new to this and want to learn about the overall
LibreOffice project? Are you saying that the wiki is not useful because
so much work needs to be done on it?
On the wiki, you'll see the different sub-projects of the LibreOffice
overall project, mainly: development, QA (quality assurance), UX/Design
(user experience), l10n (localization), documentation, infrastructure,
marketing, certification and NLPs (native language projects). All those
sub projects interact together to finally deliver LibreOffice the
product. You'll find also information about the Document Liberation
Project (DLP) which is another project under TDF umbrealla.
As long as I am asking questions, here is one more: What is the Pootle
server?
Pootle is an instance used by the l10n team to localize LibreOffice UI
and Help, part of the website, LibreOffice On Line currently.
Don't hesitate to ask any question you have 
Cheers
Sophie
Thanks for your input. These is much to learn!
I am referring to the LibreOffice download page. Why? Because it sounds like I am not the only one who is unaware that we need to download a separate file for the Help files. It should be a relatively simple fix to just re-word what is on that page so that people understand. It is puzzling that this has not been done since people are aware of the problem.
I can see what is on the wiki. However, Olivier said "But it requires permanent reordering and addition/deletion/update of hundreds of pages, permanently." I was trying to understand if he was saying that it is not a great source of information. In any case, it sounds like it is the only place to get an overview of LibreOffice (although it is still challenging to do so).
From your description of Pootle, I was able to learn that an online version of LibreOffice is in the works. I don't really understand the rest of it, but at least I now know that Pootle is related to that project.
Hi Cor,
I appreciate your advice about how to get the wording revised on the program download page. Unfortunately, I don't know what adding "needsUXEval to the keywords field" means.
Could you please translate into plain English?
Thank you.
Cathy
On the (US English) download page, inside the box for the chosen version
it reads:
<Q>
LibreOffice 5.4.0 release notes
Supplementary Downloads:
Help for offline use: English (US) (Torrent, Info)
need another language?
</Q>
The installer file for the off-line/local help facility, is offered as
"Supplementary" (additional) to the main installation file, because it
is a convenience option, not an essential requirement to use the
software. If the off-line help is not installed the software
automatically attempts to provide the on-line equivalent in the user's
web browser. If you have a suggestion for the "simple fix" rewording to
convey this in a few words, we can put it forward to the website team.
"Few words", because everything has to be translated into many
(https://www.libreoffice.org/community/nlc/) languages, by our
(overworked) translation volunteers.
Oliver was not suggesting the wiki is not a good source of information.
The wiki content has been built up over a number of years and in some
areas it would benefit from a bit of housekeeping. As with all things in
open source software, there is always much more work to be done than
there are hands to do it.
You seem to be looking for some kind of single reference source that
will inform people about everything within the complex structure of this
fairly large project. Can you give some indication as to what level of
detail and what audience(s) such a source should cater for. Maybe
something suitable could be drafted and put forward as an overview for
the "Get Involved" page:
https://www.libreoffice.org/community/get-involved/
You might have misinterpreted Sophie's post. Pootle is not exclusively
related to the online version of the software, it is a
tool/facility/service used by the translators for many aspects of the
software.
Hello Cathy
needsUXEval is a buzzword for "Need User Experience Team evaluation". We
have a group of people specialized in software user interface design
that evaluates all aspects of the human interaction with the software.
Hi Dave,
On the (US English) download page, inside the box for the chosen version
it reads:
<Q>
LibreOffice 5.4.0 release notes
Supplementary Downloads:
Help for offline use: English (US) (Torrent, Info)
need another language?
</Q>
The installer file for the off-line/local help facility, is offered as
"Supplementary" (additional) to the main installation file, because it
is a convenience option, not an essential requirement to use the
software.
In some countries it's a legal requirement to have the help files
alongside the software, that's why it's also available as a package, for
IT department to be able to install it together with the product.
If the off-line help is not installed the software
automatically attempts to provide the on-line equivalent in the user's
web browser. If you have a suggestion for the "simple fix" rewording to
convey this in a few words, we can put it forward to the website team.
"Few words", because everything has to be translated into many
(https://www.libreoffice.org/community/nlc/) languages, by our
(overworked) translation volunteers.
Yes, but to be exact, NLPs doesn't translate the exact content, it's up
to them to translate what they want and adapt it to their language.
Oliver was not suggesting the wiki is not a good source of information.
The wiki content has been built up over a number of years and in some
areas it would benefit from a bit of housekeeping. As with all things in
open source software, there is always much more work to be done than
there are hands to do it.You seem to be looking for some kind of single reference source that
will inform people about everything within the complex structure of this
fairly large project. Can you give some indication as to what level of
detail and what audience(s) such a source should cater for. Maybe
something suitable could be drafted and put forward as an overview for
the "Get Involved" page:
https://www.libreoffice.org/community/get-involved/You might have misinterpreted Sophie's post. Pootle is not exclusively
related to the online version of the software, it is a
tool/facility/service used by the translators for many aspects of the
software.
Yes thanks for the clarifications
Cheers
Sophie
Cor,
I don't see a keywords field when entering a bug in Bugzilla.
Are you perhaps referring to the Summary field? If not, what am I missing?
--Jean
Ah, I found it. I had to click "Show Advanced Fields" fields first.
Then it's down near the bottom, below Add an Attachment.
--Jean
Indeed - thanks for mentioning that detail Jean,
Greetings,
Cor
There have been several posts about this issue but I am still not clear how to suggest changes to the user interface. Exactly what should I do?
Dave,
Here is a suggestion that might help those of us who are new: a chart or listing that attempts to show who is involved in the documentation team and what they are doing. It might be hard to ensure that everyone is included but perhaps it could start with the people who have been actively participating in the mailing list. There is little hierarchy but some people have higher levels of formal responsibility and it would be good to know who they are. If possible, it would be interesting to know people's geographical locations as well.
A chart or listing for the overall LibreOffice structure would also be helpful. It need not be very detailed but could give a sense of how it is organized and maybe who some of the main players are.
It should be possible to produce these without significant effort. Or better still, they already exist and just need to be linked to.
Cheers,
Cathy
The process would be as follows for issues needing input from the design team:
1. Register an account in Bugzilla: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/createaccount.cgi It requires an email confirmation.
2. Start the creation of a new report: https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/enter_bug.cgi?product=LibreOffice
3. Click Show advanced fields.
4. If it is about the general interface, change component to UI. If it is about some specific feature, pick an application (Writer, Calc..).
5. If the issue is more of an innovative improvement rather than a fix for something that broke, change Severity to enhancement.
6. In the Summary field, give a brief description of the matter.
7. In the description field you can describe it in more detail.
8. In the CC field, insert libreoffice-ux-advise@lists.freedesktop.org
9. In the keywords field near the bottom, insert needsUXEval
Optionally, you can include a screenshot with the Add an attachment button. This is only needed for those cases when a picture tells more than a thousand words.
Reporting something concerning the website(s), Redmine is the appropriate tool: https://redmine.documentfoundation.org/projects/infrastructure
The LibreOffice project two main web facing aspects, the website
https://www.libreoffice.org/ and the wiki
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Main_Page
I think you already have wiki access, in which case you can make the
changes yourself, preferably after notifying the team (eg. the
documentation team's wiki) about those changes.
For the website there are a few different channels open for you to
submit your suggestions. Two that you might consider are:
* Bugzilla (https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/ not an easy maze to
navigate) which, in addition to bug reporting, is the central
facility for anyone to request/suggest things like, core software
code changes by the developer team, software user interface by the
design team.
Bugzilla submissions are categorized into areas of the project to
which they relate. The "needsUXEval" Cor mentioned is a flag/marker
which can be added to bring the submission to the attention of the
design/user_experience team.
* Post to the website mailing list website@global.libreoffice.org,
with specific details of your suggestion. Note: The website team is
often referred to as "Infra" (abbreviation of Infrastructure) See
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Category:Infrastructure for more
info.
The post from Ilmari Lauhakangas reached the list while I was typing
this and gives much more detailed step-by-step information.
Regards
Dave