[Typo] a weird sentence in ch1, writer guide.

I would rewrite the first sentence as--for more general usage:

For example, when the cursor is in a table, a floating Table toolbar appears, or when the cursor is in a numbered (ordered) or bulleted (unordered) list, the Bullets and Numbering toolbar appears.

Gary

Hi :slight_smile:
Nicely spotted.  Back when the 3.3.x documentation was being written the team put that type of problem at a lower priority than re-branding and just getting the guides out quickly.  In 3.4.x people took a lot more care with the GS and Writers Guides.

I think the sentence needs to be broken-up into 2 but feel free to change it around to make more sense in Korean and then maybe try giving a rough translation into English.

Translations don't have to be word-for-word do they?  Different cultures sometimes have different thought processes so some points might need a radically different approach. 
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Hi :slight_smile:
I am never sure what the rules and guidelines are for doing good translations.
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Thanks Tom.
I understand what you said. I just wanted to know whether that
sentence is clear or not for most of people.
And you're right about translation. I never replace word-for-word,
actually I can't because of differences of the way of thinking,
writing, and speaking. :slight_smile:

Yes, it is "the floating Table toolbar" and "the floating Bullets and Numbering toolbar." It is a specific toolbar and "the" applies in each case.

Is that your concern?

- Dennis

Well, don't get me wrong, please. I don't want to make any argue about
english grammar. and I don't have any capability for that.
It's simple. If someone says, there's no problem, then no problems.
And if there's something unclear, you guys could discuss about that. I
wish I could join in, though.

To be honest, I don't know the difference between "a" and "the" well.
Though I know the basic concept of course.
When I read the sentence, I thought the sentence might be not clear
and a writer might have made a small mistake. So I just asked you in
this mailing list to check that sentence again just in case.

Hi :slight_smile:
It's good to ask and i think it usually leads to better understanding and better documentation.  It can be frustrating and we don't have a lot of time to discuss each sentence of all the books in depth so you might have to "make a judgement call" and adapt what is written to "fit cultural differences" better.  On the other hand some people enjoy discussing this sort of detail and find it interesting.

a = one  of a number of identical (or perhaps just very similar) items/people/events/ideas

the = there's only one that is relevant

I thought the paragraph got a bit muddled in it's use of a&the but usually readers just skim over oddities like that.
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

How true...

While we are at it... (being picky, picky as a copyeditor): The "it's" in your last sentence should have been "its"--a common grammar error.

Pro bono grammar lesson: Possessive pronouns ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possessive_pronoun ) and possessive adjectives ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Possessive_adjective#.22Possessive_adjectives.22_in_English ), such as its, do not use apostrophes--unlike contractions.

Gary

Hi :slight_smile:
Nice one! :)  Yes, i do a whole load of weird and wrong things in emails.  I think that particular mistake is one i make often. 
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Hello Gary and Tom

Many people make the mistake about its and it's, even the English.

I have found over the years that it is always best to avoid the apostrophe
when writing. This makes it better when someone has to translate English
into another language.

For example:

It's - always write as "it is"
Can't - always write as "cannot" (please note "cannot" is one word and
should not be written as "can not" - a quirk of the English language).
Don't - always write as "do not".

I think you get my drift. Using word contractions is part of conversation
and should never be written. That is how I was taught English language by my
Scottish English teacher many years ago in Yorkshire. You have to remember,
folk from Yorkshire are famous for missing t'odd word.

Regards

Peter

Hi :slight_smile:
I think that's a valid point but sadly it is unlikely to happen.

Contractions happen as part of a language's evolution.  Note that Commander Data in Star Trek, Next Generation (TNG) is considered over formal and often laments his inability to use contractions as it makes him seem "less human".

Also there is a subtle difference between it's and "it is" as it changes the emphasis of the sentence.  With "it is" there is more weight on the "is" as it make the "is" more definite
it is
can replace
it's definitely
or a better example is
"Oh yes, it is" rather than "Oh yes, it's".  The 2nd one of those is unlikely to make much sense.

I think the confusion arises because often when something possesses something, for example
Tim's bike
the 's is used to show which noun owns what but the 's in "it's" never means that.  If a noun appears to be plural then the ' would appear after the word
A Copenhagen hospital's computers are being switched to LibreOffice
All Copenhagen hospitals' computers are being switched over to LibreOffice
Again that doesn't happen with "its".  So it feels like there should be an ' but it is incorrect to have one. 
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Committing a grammatical mistake within a grammar discussion always (de)merits a "gotcha."

I know, "demerit" is not really a verb...

Gary

Peter

Hello Gary and Tom

Many people make the mistake about its and it's, even the English.

I have found over the years that it is always best to avoid the apostrophe
when writing. This makes it better when someone has to translate English
into another language.

For example:

It's - always write as "it is"
Can't - always write as "cannot" (please note "cannot" is one word and
should not be written as "can not" - a quirk of the English language).
Don't - always write as "do not".

This alleged native speaker of US English cannot remember the correct contractions to use them.

Hello Jay and Tom

The USA and UK are two countries separated by one language - English -
and the ne'er the twain shall meet ;-())))

Avoiding the use of the apostrophe is one thing we should consider. It does help users whose mother tongue is not English because the grammar rules for the apostrophe are difficult to understand with the possessive apostrophe being the hardest. Comes from personal experience of working in several non-English countries. Also, if you work in the aviation industry and use Simplified English, the apostrophe is definitely out.

I always enjoy discussions like this as it is a break from the serious stuff.

Regards

Peter Schofield
psauthor@gmail.com

I think our style guide says to not use contractions in documentation. If not, it should, and I will amend it.

Email to the list is a different matter, and I find that AutoCorrect causes many an apostrophe error in my emails when I'm in a hurry and don't reread carefully before sending.

Jean

Hi :slight_smile:
+1
Ok, i agree about documentation avoiding contractions
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Hello Jay and Tom

The USA and UK are two countries separated by one language - English -
and the ne'er the twain shall meet ;-())))

Avoiding the use of the apostrophe is one thing we should consider. It does help users whose mother tongue is not English because the grammar rules for the apostrophe are difficult to understand with the possessive apostrophe being the hardest. Comes from personal experience of working in several non-English countries. Also, if you work in the aviation industry and use Simplified English, the apostrophe is definitely out.

Out of curiosity, just why is the apostrophe banned from the aviation industry? Is its use a real risk to safety?

I have held an FAA Airframe & Powerplant (A&P) Mechanic's certificate since the 1980s and have been a licensed pilot since 1971 and was unaware of any aviation dangers attributed to apostrophes--up to now.

Gary

Hello Jay and Tom

The USA and UK are two countries separated by one language - English -
and the ne'er the twain shall meet ;-())))

Avoiding the use of the apostrophe is one thing we should consider. It does help users whose mother tongue is not English because the grammar rules for the apostrophe are difficult to understand with the possessive apostrophe being the hardest. Comes from personal experience of working in several non-English countries. Also, if you work in the aviation industry and use Simplified English, the apostrophe is definitely out.

I think the native English speakers should remember to avoid contractions and other be more precise about possessives.

Also, it does not help that there are two major spelling systems in English, fortunately the differences are generally very consistent (*our vs *or or *er vs *re in word endings).

Another problem is that UK, Canadian, US, etc. local idioms are sometimes incomprehensible to other. And some words are have some what different meanings in US English than UK English. (the boot of a car (UK) is the trunk of a car (US)) Wikipedia has several lists of these differences and some can be very humorous.

Gary

Hello Jay and Tom

The USA and UK are two countries separated by one language - English -
and the ne'er the twain shall meet ;-())))

Avoiding the use of the apostrophe is one thing we should consider. It does help users whose mother tongue is not English because the grammar rules for the apostrophe are difficult to understand with the possessive apostrophe being the hardest. Comes from personal experience of working in several non-English countries. Also, if you work in the aviation industry and use Simplified English, the apostrophe is definitely out.

Out of curiosity, just why is the apostrophe banned from the aviation industry? Is its use a real risk to safety?

I have held an FAA Airframe & Powerplant (A&P) Mechanic's certificate since the 1980s and have been a licensed pilot since 1971 and was unaware of any aviation dangers attributed to apostrophes--up to now.

Gary

My guess is that non-native speakers more easily could misunderstand the contraction particularly when quickly scanning a document. The only contraction I can think of is you're for you are vs your.

An very common adage in safety is to make the instructions very clear and precise and avoid any wording/phrasing/contractions/etc that could cause confusion. This is especially important when there is a problem and quick/accurate comprehension is critical.

Gary

Hello Jay and Tom

The USA and UK are two countries separated by one language - English -
and the ne'er the twain shall meet ;-())))

Avoiding the use of the apostrophe is one thing we should consider. It does help users whose mother tongue is not English because the grammar rules for the apostrophe are difficult to understand with the possessive apostrophe being the hardest. Comes from personal experience of working in several non-English countries. Also, if you work in the aviation industry and use Simplified English, the apostrophe is definitely out.

Out of curiosity, just why is the apostrophe banned from the aviation industry? Is its use a real risk to safety?

I have held an FAA Airframe & Powerplant (A&P) Mechanic's certificate since the 1980s and have been a licensed pilot since 1971 and was unaware of any aviation dangers attributed to apostrophes--up to now.

Gary

My guess is that non-native speakers more easily could misunderstand the contraction particularly when quickly scanning a document. The only contraction I can think of is you're for you are vs your.

One typical classic is: they're, their, and there. In another sense, there is: chord, cored, and cord.

Gary