Chapter 2 of Base Guide progress

I never intended to put ACCESS in our documentation, if we must as Jean
showed above we could use "MS Office's Data Base" ... IIIIIRRRRCCC indeed
:slight_smile:

What I was doing is giving some brainstormig response for the questions Dan
asked, it was just that ... branstorming.

Rogerio

> > I think it might be fastest for Hazel to complete it.
>
> Too late! Update in the drafts folder just now.
> Mostly content, since Hazel's proof reading is great.
>
> Since a lot of it is about the content, there are many "notes" rather than changes of
> text.
>
> It's really important to make the distinction between a DBMS (that's a program that
> manages a database), and the data that we put into a database that we've built
> using a DBMS.
>
> I also think that's it's REALLY important to make it clear that HSQLDB is not THE
> Base DBMS, just the default setting. There is no "Base DBMS", it can use many
> different engines. And, sticking my neck out even further, I'd say it'd be good
> to play down the built in version of HSQLDB, or at least not play it up. Since it's
> limitations have upset even one of our most famous "Base" names, Mr Pitonyak, I think
> it would be good to play up the ability to use (almost) whatever DMBS you want rather
> than giving the impression that HSQLDB is "it".
>
> Ok, steady.. Aim... Fire!
>
> Regards
> Mark Stanton
> One small step for mankind...

Fire one! [:wink: ]
     The one thing that has always confused me: What is Base?

Base is a software tool used to create and manipulate ODF database
documents.

ODF database documents are compound documents that allow users to treat
a collection of items, all related to a single data source, as a whole.

This includes:
- the information required to connect to a database source
- user configuration data for displaying ra
+w data from this data source
- query definitions for extracting record sets from this data source
- data entry forms for manipulating data in the data source
- report definitions used to export raw data into ODF text documents and
spreadsheets

Additionally, Base offers a number of utilities for working with the
data source:
- data strucure definition functionality
- ability to import/export records from one data source to another
- scripting capabilities allowing the user to expand the build functions
n the package.

...

anyway - just what came to mind.

Best wishes,

//drew

Tom:
            I agree with you but I can't see what is the of mentioning
Access. I mean, we know that Access works in an specific way and Base
work in others, but I don't we have to mention it in the documentation.
I think that saying is a replacement for others database front-ends is
enough. No need of mentioning any other name. And no need of saying
that is ugly and that other is pretty.
We only have to describe our application, that's all.
What do is important is to say is "this is better because..." and
describe why is flexible, easy to use, etc.

Well, the ability to work with MS Access is a highly important question
and one that if you are being truthful is not really possible with Base.

You can connect to an Access Database as a data source, but you are not
able to make much if any use of major parts of the data (beyond the
tables) held in the MS Access file.

There are also a number of very difficult situations with MS Access that
are commonly the downfall of attempting actual interoperability.

Some of the things that the manual should point out, IMO, queries will
be viewed in Base as either tables or views - this means that users are
often befuddled as to why some Access table will not take updates -
cause they aren't tables, kids.

Queries in MS Access support features for which there are NO equivalents
in Base, without resorting to scripting.

Forms in MS Access support features for which there are NO equivalents
in Base, and you likely would need C++ code to duplicate those, forget
the scripting.

The same can be said for reports.

MS Access supports the ability to connect to multiple data sources,
another 'feature' for which there is NO equivalent in Base or
LibreOffice for that matter. (Two data sources on a stand alone form are
not the same thing)

[However, this actually does have a work around - you simply must use a
DB backend that can do this instead]

Anyway - I would, if I where actually doing this and so I it's my call,
include some information about the issue with queries being picked up as
'views' as this bites a lot of people..beyond that, it's likely FAQ type
stuff, IMO.

Best wishes

//drew

None of my "content" comments are version specific at all. They're
more to do with the concepts that Dan's putting forward.

Disagreement, discussion and resolution (preferably in that order,
though perhaps with a couple more loops) very welcome.

So - the latest version with everyone's edits is available where
exactly? Sorry for being so dense.

Thanks in advance,

//drew

It's here:
http://www.odfauthors.org/libreoffice/english/base-guide/feedback-lo3.4/planning-and-designing-your-database-1/view

Hazel has it locked for editing, but you can still download a copy.

--Jean

Hi :slight_smile:
Ok, so when migrating from Access to Base would it be best to first export the Access tables into a different database program and then get Access to read those tables?

Would that mean re-writing Access's Reports and Forms that are based on the tables?
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Hi :slight_smile:
All good :)  It is great to see this level of discussion about Base at last.  It would be really great if there was a mailing list just for Base imo but there isn't. 
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Hi :slight_smile:
Ok, so when migrating from Access to Base would it be best to first export the Access tables into a different database program and then get Access to read those tables?

No. I referred to situations where Base is updating ms-jet or accdb (MS
Access data engines) directly.

Would that mean re-writing Access's Reports and Forms that are based on the tables?
Regards from

Correct - there is no way to re-use any of those.

Hi Drew,

You can connect to an Access Database as a data source, but you are not
able to make much if any use of major parts of the data (beyond the
tables) held in the MS Access file.

Could you explain please (I don't know Access very well at all)?

Some of the things that the manual should point out, IMO, queries will
be viewed in Base as either tables or views - this means that users are
often befuddled as to why some Access table will not take updates -

Is this an Access specific issue?

Queries in MS Access support features for which there are NO equivalents
in Base, without resorting to scripting.

Like what? And is this an Access specific thing?

Forms in MS Access support features for which there are NO equivalents
in Base, and you likely would need C++ code to duplicate those, forget
the scripting.
The same can be said for reports.

I can imagine this is the case, but could you say what features these are?

MS Access supports the ability to connect to multiple data sources,
another 'feature' for which there is NO equivalent in Base or
LibreOffice for that matter.

Or in several dbms engines either.

Anyway - I would, if I where actually doing this and so I it's my call,
include some information about the issue with queries being picked up as
'views' as this bites a lot of people..beyond that, it's likely FAQ type
stuff, IMO.

Or "hints" p'raps?

Mark Stanton
One small step for mankind...

Hi Drew,

> You can connect to an Access Database as a data source, but you are not
> able to make much if any use of major parts of the data (beyond the
> tables) held in the MS Access file.

Could you explain please (I don't know Access very well at all)?

Well, if you don't use MS Access then what do you care, but alright.

> Some of the things that the manual should point out, IMO, queries will
> be viewed in Base as either tables or views - this means that users are
> often befuddled as to why some Access table will not take updates -

Is this an Access specific issue?

Yes

> Queries in MS Access support features for which there are NO equivalents
> in Base, without resorting to scripting.

Like what? And is this an Access specific thing?

The ability of a query to reference a form control, for one.

> Forms in MS Access support features for which there are NO equivalents
> in Base, and you likely would need C++ code to duplicate those, forget
> the scripting.

There are types of controls that have no equivalent - for instance (hmm
what does Access call it..) a scrollable area that contains repeating
groups of controls.

> The same can be said for reports.

How parameters are passed to reports is not easily duplicated.

I can imagine this is the case, but could you say what features these are?

> MS Access supports the ability to connect to multiple data sources,
> another 'feature' for which there is NO equivalent in Base or
> LibreOffice for that matter.

Or in several dbms engines either.

Sure and so what, the question isn't about other dbms'

//drew

I can understand why is more flexible but not the simplistic/complex
thing. I think that saying that something is a "simplistic tool" is a
good way to confuse people, especially those who has a little or zero
experience with databases.
I think is better to say something like "This is the LibreOffice tool
for databases. If you see that your needs can be satisfied with it,
please, look for a more sophisticated tool like this, or this" and put
links below about our project and other common front-ends and databases.
Don't forget to include library's application, because they are a good
bunch people in need of databases and they're important! :-))

Regards

Hi Jean,

It's here:
http://www.odfauthors.org/libreoffice/english/base-guide/feedback-lo3.4/planning-and-designing-your-database-1/view

Ooh, that's very handy, I was looking for that, but it asks me for
credentials, and I don't seem to be able to log in with my old OOo ones,
perhaps I need to ask for a new account ?

Alex

Try this link. It is the same document but in a different folder.
http://www.odfauthors.org/libreoffice/english/base-guide/draft-lo3.4/planning-designing-your-database/view

--Dan

I just changed the status of the file, so the link you have above
will not work without logging into the ODF website.

--Dan

New account now set up. You should get an email with login info.

--Jean

Thanks Jean,

That works just fine.

Regards
Mark Stanton
One small step for mankind...

Thanks Dan, will take a look.

Alex

Oh great stuff, thanks Jean.

Alex

Hi Dan,

     Try this link. It is the same document but in a different folder.
http://www.odfauthors.org/libreoffice/english/base-guide/draft-lo3.4/planning-designing-your-database/view

I'm currently translating this into French, but I have noticed so far
one or two things I'm uncomfortable with :

- the use of the terms RDBM and RDBMS, as has been noted by others - for
me this is more a question of semantics than anything else ;

- the suggestion (labelled as a "Tip") that if you update your version
of LO, you should also update your version of Java. I'm afraid I would
have to disagree on this one and I have deleted it from my current
ongoing translation. Upgrading the version of Java on the system to the
latest available has often been associated with worse performance on LO
overall IMO. I would not recommend this systematically to anyone.

Alex

When I wrote that section, I did so without clear understanding of
what DBMS and RDBMS mean. I'm going to have to rewrite this part.
     Thanks for catching the TIP about java. That too will be rewritten
very shortly. Newer versions of java has caused problems for LO and OOo
recently. Yet java is needed for Base. This is a problem.

--Dan