Proposal for major revision of Getting Started Guide

Tom, this is also being discussed at ODFAuthors; Andrew is one of our
"macro gurus" and wrote "Getting Started with Macros" and the macro
chapter in the Calc Guide amongst other things -- including some helpful
macros for us.

In this case I can't see doing two editions of the book, unless LibO in
fact does have macro functionalities that OOo doesn't have. But that, of
course, is up to Andrew, the author.

Have you seen his website and his book? They are good resources for
people who want serious info on macros. (Shameless plug for Andrew)

http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php
http://www.pitonyak.org/book/

--Jean

Hi Jean,

Have you seen his website and his book? They are good resources for
people who want serious info on macros. (Shameless plug for Andrew)

http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php
http://www.pitonyak.org/book/

Just as a side remark, and hijacking this thread somewhat, it has always
amazed me how fragmented the market for books on OOo, and now LibO, has
been. From just the references I know of :

English language books : editors I have seen range from Lulu (individual
authoring), Sam's, the "for Dummies" series, probably a few others of
which I've not heard.

French language : a plethora of small publishing houses by different
authors, mostly OOo/LibO module-centric, e.g. Eyrolles is perhaps the
most well-known publisher. They also produce the excellent book on Macro
programming by Laurent Godard and Bernard Marcelly (in French only alas).

German language : books by Thomas Krumbein, covering each module of the
suite. There are others I have seen on my travels to Germany.

In my experience, it is fairly rare to see one editor publish in
multiple languages, the exception possibly being the "for Dummies" book.

I am at a loss to understand why this might be, after all, there are a
fair number of talented technical translators out there, but I suppose
that translation costs inevitably eat into editors' margins.

Alex

Hi Gary

Some schools do operate on a set programme, for example, at my primary school, although I teach French Second Language, I am in charge of teaching Word (Writer) basics to grades 4-5; PowerPoint (Impress) to grades 6,7 and until a couple years ago, our previous grade 7 teacher was in charge of teaching Excel (Calc) to grades 8 and advanced macros in preparation to high school. The "Getting Started Guide" would be a great addition to any Library collection for student referral/reference.

In my experience, there is still a small segment of the student population that do read manuals and they usually pass on their knowledge to others in their class.

I have thus far taught for 18 years as Math, Science and Technology consultant (primary and secondary schools); classroom teacher; computer classroom specialist and French Second Language specialist at various times during these years. I am presently off on disability for crushed spine and complications but hope to get back to class soon.

Cheers

Marc

I also think that Base should be covered, even if the information is sparse to start off with. The suite's modules should be covered. If they appear in the guide, then some of us will try it out or (in my case) present it to our students. I also realize that there are few who use the module which makes it hard to cover it, but if it can be covered, it would be nice.

Cheers

Marc

Hi Alex

Being new to the project (I have only been involved with LibreOffice and was not at OOo), from what I see, and, I'm sure that I am stating the obvious, it just looks like it is mostly for the lack of help. There are a few of the "front line" contributors outside of the dev team, and not enough of the (what I would call) "second line contributors" whose main task is to translate documentation into various languages. There are just too few people contributing. Plus, the front line contributors also take care of too many peripheral tasks that distract from their main contribution areas.

Cheers

Marc

I thought Alex was talking about commercial publishers (though he used
the term "editors"), who have their own criteria for deciding what might
sell enough to cover their costs and make a profit.

--Jean

Hi Jean,

I thought Alex was talking about commercial publishers (though he used
the term "editors"), who have their own criteria for deciding what might
sell enough to cover their costs and make a profit.

Indeed, publishing houses, as one might traditionally have considered
them before individual or small group publishing platforms became available.

Alex

Yes, sorry for the misunderstanding.

Cheers

Marc

Hi :slight_smile:
Hmmm, it's a shame there doesn't seem to be a generic term covering OpenOffice,
LibreOffice and the various forks. I see why Andrew is standing back from
re-editing until the dust settles but it would be a shame to miss the
opportunity to get established fast. Perhaps at the beginning of the book it
could be made clear that throughout the book reference will be made to "Office"
meaning both OpenOffice and LibreOffice plus any relevant forks (NeoOffice?)?
Of course outside of the LibreOffice&OpenOffice community the word Office tends
to refer to something else but i use it at work in an increasingly ambiguous
way.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Late in my (engineering and other things) career, I taught at both public and private K-12 schools, last teaching back in 2001. All of the schools were long computerized by then. During the computer labs, most of the kids were "taught" by teachers, who only a few months earlier typically taught subjects as social studies and the like and were most often only a day or three ahead of their students in subject matter--if that.

Most kids then learned office-suite apps mostly by intuition because those apps were designed that way from day-1. At one middle school, during the computer labs I dropped in on my kids on occasion. Once, one kid asked me to help him with a simple problem. I first inquired what the on-line help suggested. He did not even know (primarily because lazy teachers often do not teach such useful things...) that there even was any on-line help. So, I interrupted the class (although the newly-ordained computer-lab--previously an older social-studies teacher at the school--teacher initially objected) so that they all knew about how to use on-line help from the Help menu.

At another school--a private K-5 school where I taught the fifth grade, at one half-day in-session (kids go home early those days) the administration was discussing ways to save money, if possible. Waking up from a short nap, I suggested that the school fire the young woman who taught their computer labs because she was incompetent. To my surprise, that suggestion was instantly accepted, and the teachers were ordered to teach their own classes in the computer lab.

One little snag though. Not all the teachers then were computer literate. So, I took over some of the computer labs and had those teachers teach (or baby-sit) my fifth grade class during those times.

I again assert that people most often will not employ user guides, or even the on-line help, and will usually ask somebody else for help, as any problems occur.

Gary

________________________________
From: Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl@SWDetroit.com>
To: documentation@global.libreoffice.org
Sent: Thu, 30 June, 2011 23:50:09
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Proposal for major revision of
Getting Started Guide

On 6/30/2011 4:27 AM, Marc Paré wrote:

Based on my experience as a K-12 teacher a decade ago, I know that kids do not
bother to read texts, even if assigned as homework. So, users will do as much as
they can on their own before consulting the online help or user guides.

One reason for low book sales is that much fewer users will bother to read
books nowadays.

Gary

Hi Gary

Some schools do operate on a set programme, for example, at my primary school,
although I teach French Second Language, I am in charge of teaching Word
(Writer) basics to grades 4-5; PowerPoint (Impress) to grades 6,7 and until a
couple years ago, our previous grade 7 teacher was in charge of teaching Excel
(Calc) to grades 8 and advanced macros in preparation to high school. The
"Getting Started Guide" would be a great addition to any Library collection for
student referral/reference.

In my experience, there is still a small segment of the student population that
do read manuals and they usually pass on their knowledge to others in their
class.

I have thus far taught for 18 years as Math, Science and Technology consultant
(primary and secondary schools); classroom teacher; computer classroom
specialist and French Second Language specialist at various times during these
years. I am presently off on disability for crushed spine and complications but
hope to get back to class soon.

Cheers

Marc

Late in my (engineering and other things) career, I taught at both public and
private K-12 schools, last teaching back in 2001. All of the schools were long
computerized by then. During the computer labs, most of the kids were "taught"
by teachers, who only a few months earlier typically taught subjects as social
studies and the like and were most often only a day or three ahead of their
students in subject matter--if that.

Most kids then learned office-suite apps mostly by intuition because those apps
were designed that way from day-1. At one middle school, during the computer
labs I dropped in on my kids on occasion. Once, one kid asked me to help him
with a simple problem. I first inquired what the on-line help suggested. He did
not even know (primarily because lazy teachers often do not teach such useful
things...) that there even was any on-line help. So, I interrupted the class
(although the newly-ordained computer-lab--previously an older social-studies
teacher at the school--teacher initially objected) so that they all knew about
how to use on-line help from the Help menu.

At another school--a private K-5 school where I taught the fifth grade, at one
half-day in-session (kids go home early those days) the administration was
discussing ways to save money, if possible. Waking up from a short nap, I
suggested that the school fire the young woman who taught their computer labs
because she was incompetent. To my surprise, that suggestion was instantly
accepted, and the teachers were ordered to teach their own classes in the
computer lab.

One little snag though. Not all the teachers then were computer literate. So, I
took over some of the computer labs and had those teachers teach (or baby-sit)
my fifth grade class during those times.

I again assert that people most often will not employ user guides, or even the
on-line help, and will usually ask somebody else for help, as any problems
occur.

Gary

Hi :slight_smile:
I agree up to a point. Many people are sociable up to a point and often find it
easier to ask other people than look things up. I can think of a few exceptions
tho! People with even mild aspergers or other issues might tend to shy away
from people prefer books and computers. Various forms of arrogance or honour or
pride. Fear of being seen as weak. Shame. Fear of being indebted to anyone.
In many countries it goes against the culture and is considered rude to ask for
help. Some people just love books.

Sociable people are generally the people we notice most often. People that are
good at hiding away are less easy to notice.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Hi Gary

Late in my (engineering and other things) career, I taught at both
public and private K-12 schools, last teaching back in 2001. All of the
schools were long computerized by then. During the computer labs, most
of the kids were "taught" by teachers, who only a few months earlier
typically taught subjects as social studies and the like and were most
often only a day or three ahead of their students in subject matter--if
that.

Most kids then learned office-suite apps mostly by intuition because
those apps were designed that way from day-1. At one middle school,
during the computer labs I dropped in on my kids on occasion. Once, one
kid asked me to help him with a simple problem. I first inquired what
the on-line help suggested. He did not even know (primarily because lazy
teachers often do not teach such useful things...) that there even was
any on-line help. So, I interrupted the class (although the
newly-ordained computer-lab--previously an older social-studies teacher
at the school--teacher initially objected) so that they all knew about
how to use on-line help from the Help menu.

At another school--a private K-5 school where I taught the fifth grade,
at one half-day in-session (kids go home early those days) the
administration was discussing ways to save money, if possible. Waking up
from a short nap, I suggested that the school fire the young woman who
taught their computer labs because she was incompetent. To my surprise,
that suggestion was instantly accepted, and the teachers were ordered to
teach their own classes in the computer lab.

One little snag though. Not all the teachers then were computer
literate. So, I took over some of the computer labs and had those
teachers teach (or baby-sit) my fifth grade class during those times.

I again assert that people most often will not employ user guides, or
even the on-line help, and will usually ask somebody else for help, as
any problems occur.

Gary

I agree completely, human nature being what it is, we usually look for the shortest distance between points A and B. If there is a manual in between -- A->C->B, most will ignore the C until they need to go back to it. I find that, when following this teaching method the "going back to C" frustrates too many students and the level of achievement is not too impressive.

To circumvent this, we followed an established programme where use of the manuals is/was encouraged. After a couple of weeks, the students (and staff for that matter) knew how to get around the manuals and referred back to them exactly as they should -- as reference guides. The staff and students had to make use of the reference guides.

So, if the approach is a "guided learning programme" which includes use of manuals, then the success is greater. Students should not be left to "discover" steps in computing, they need to be guided. Although this takes a little longer at the start of the programme, the end results far outstrip the "let them find out on their own" strategy. After going through these initial steps the students may be left to "discover" more on their own (they have now mastered the use of reference guides) and move on to their of personal computing needs -- in our system we follow "Blooms taxonomy" of learning[1] which seems to work quite well with the students (and staff).

Cheers

Marc

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bloom's_Taxonomy

Hi, Gary and All

>> Based on my experience as a K-12 teacher a decade ago, I know that
>> kids do not bother to read texts, even if assigned as homework. So,
>> users will do as much as they can on their own before consulting the
>> online help or user guides.
>>
>> One reason for low book sales is that much fewer users will bother to
>> read books nowadays.
>>
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>
> Hi Gary
>
> Some schools do operate on a set programme, for example, at my primary
> school, although I teach French Second Language, I am in charge of
> teaching Word (Writer) basics to grades 4-5; PowerPoint (Impress) to
> grades 6,7 and until a couple years ago, our previous grade 7 teacher
> was in charge of teaching Excel (Calc) to grades 8 and advanced macros
> in preparation to high school. The "Getting Started Guide" would be a
> great addition to any Library collection for student referral/reference.
>
> In my experience, there is still a small segment of the student
> population that do read manuals and they usually pass on their
> knowledge to others in their class.
>
> I have thus far taught for 18 years as Math, Science and Technology
> consultant (primary and secondary schools); classroom teacher;
> computer classroom specialist and French Second Language specialist at
> various times during these years. I am presently off on disability for
> crushed spine and complications but hope to get back to class soon.
>
> Cheers
>
> Marc
>

Late in my (engineering and other things) career, I taught at both
public and private K-12 schools, last teaching back in 2001. All of the
schools were long computerized by then. During the computer labs, most
of the kids were "taught" by teachers, who only a few months earlier
typically taught subjects as social studies and the like and were most
often only a day or three ahead of their students in subject matter--if
that.

Most kids then learned office-suite apps mostly by intuition because
those apps were designed that way from day-1. At one middle school,
during the computer labs I dropped in on my kids on occasion. Once, one
kid asked me to help him with a simple problem. I first inquired what
the on-line help suggested. He did not even know (primarily because lazy
teachers often do not teach such useful things...) that there even was
any on-line help. So, I interrupted the class (although the
newly-ordained computer-lab--previously an older social-studies teacher
at the school--teacher initially objected) so that they all knew about
how to use on-line help from the Help menu.

At another school--a private K-5 school where I taught the fifth grade,
at one half-day in-session (kids go home early those days) the
administration was discussing ways to save money, if possible. Waking up
from a short nap, I suggested that the school fire the young woman who
taught their computer labs because she was incompetent. To my surprise,
that suggestion was instantly accepted, and the teachers were ordered to
teach their own classes in the computer lab.

One little snag though. Not all the teachers then were computer
literate. So, I took over some of the computer labs and had those
teachers teach (or baby-sit) my fifth grade class during those times.

I again assert that people most often will not employ user guides, or
even the on-line help, and will usually ask somebody else for help, as
any problems occur.

Gary

--

Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...

Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>

I have seen too many people who would not use any help or user guide to
find any information. Also, once most users can do their tasks they
rarely ever move beyond that point.

Hi :slight_smile:
+1
This looks very sensibly laid out. I only glanced at most of it. Presumably the
Ch1 section on "Using a template to create a document" will mention and give
links to "Ch2 Using Styles and Templates"?
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

I must agree. It's obvious to me that for most people getting started with databases is very significantly more difficult than getting started with any other module of a typical office suite.

That's all the more reason to present in any introductory or overview volume some kind of survey of functionalities, at a minimum. This serves as advertisement, and inducement to dig into the module further. That this may need to be done using separate documentation should be no impediment (unless, of course, it doesn't exist, which appears to be the case with Base, at present).

I can think of several ways to ease people into using a database, such that significant incremental learning can begin for them. We just don't have any of this "getting started" material readily available, yet. That's a shame. I'd love to take a stab at it myself, but can't do it yet, for lack of time. Maybe in a few weeks. I'd love just to have a rough draft into which I and others could write as time allows...

Tom Cloyd tc@tomcloyd.com (435) 272-3332

Before I commenced my present career (psychotherapy) I was a cultural anthropologist. I saw many times in the field that there are usually key people who serve as conduits between formal knowledge repositories (libraries, book, technical consultants, etc.) and people who need answers. We call these people "culture brokers", and they are pivotal people in any major culture change process.

I suggest that technical manuals are not ever for the average person, or for the majority of users, but rather for the person who by training and/or inclination is at least somewhat of a scholar - i.e., they value textural repositories of information. They acquire this information, then pass it on to others. I see this happen all the time in forums and discussion lists devoted to various computer programs.

This is not a problem, but just a fact of how people work. When we compile succinct, accessible sources of problem solutions and basic information we are feeding the culture brokers. We must be at peace with the fact that it is they who take the information to the front-line user, in most cases. Over time, increasing numbers of people do consult primary information sources, but I expect that the majority will always consult other people first, if only because it is usually a quicker path to a solution.

For what it's worth...

Tom Cloyd tc@tomcloyd.com (435) 272-3332

I like the accessibility of this content design.

I do have one major problem: databases are omitted. This makes little sense to the degree that sooner or later most people DO create databases (flat file) in a spreadsheet. Not to mention this, and discuss it, seems both to ignore this obvious fact and to gravely slight a significant subject.

At the least, I think this should be taken up in any thorough treatment of Calc (which, it occurs to me, likely would NOT be the chapter proposed below, as it looks pretty basic and minimal).

So, I'm thinking that the natural place for this is the Calc Guide <http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/Development#Calc_Guide>, and am pleased to see that it IS taken up there. I think mention of Base, and of that section of the Calc Guide needs to be made somewhere in Ch.1 of the outline below, if only to provide a link to this material for people who come looking for it and are surprised to see that it is not here.

Tom Cloyd tc@tomcloyd.com (435) 272-3332

My published book was highly pirated, or at least far more people registered as owning the printed book than were printed. This means that the publisher may not have even covered costs and although a German version was created, it was not released (because the publisher expected that they would not cover printing costs and similar). This is also why a new edition was not released even though I created it.

I had people tell me that they would never pay for a book on free software. One guy even emailed me and said "I don't want to pay for your book, can you just send me a copy". He emailed back later and said "never mind, I was able to find a pirated copy".

The incentive to spend time and money on the project with such blatant issues is pretty low.

So, I expect that the reason that the book is not highly translated is because people are not making much (if any) money on a particular topic, so everything is done by people that spending hundreds or thousands of hours because they enjoy it. Sure, a bunch of people profit from it (knowledge wise), but although it takes time away from my family, it does not pay the bills.

A German translation of my latest release is in process, but even the English version is far from completed.

When LO first started, I felt like I was bashing my head against the wall trying to understand the what and why. I eventually personally emailed Thorsten Behrens and he provided a nice summary of line.

Hi :slight_smile:
Hmmm, it's a shame there doesn't seem to be a generic term covering OpenOffice,
LibreOffice and the various forks. I see why Andrew is standing back from
re-editing until the dust settles but it would be a shame to miss the
opportunity to get established fast. Perhaps at the beginning of the book it
could be made clear that throughout the book reference will be made to "Office"
meaning both OpenOffice and LibreOffice plus any relevant forks (NeoOffice?)?
Of course outside of the LibreOffice&OpenOffice community the word Office tends
to refer to something else but i use it at work in an increasingly ambiguous
way.

Currently, OOo has name recognition among the masses. I have an expectation at this point that an LO user understands the difference. At least initially, the primary difference seemed to be ideology. At the moment, I can state a few tangible differences, few of which makes a difference to a low level user. I expect that most of my audience (meaning at least 51%) would not be overly confused by my coverage of all the variants. As the code base drifts apart, however, that will change. I think that I noticed that API changes were actively occurring in LO.

I might go back to the artist that I used for the current cover.... I thought it might be kind of fun to ask her to integrate some of the various themes into one.