Hi,
I would suggest that macros should be covered in a totally independent
volume, not simply as a chapter in the Writer guide.
More precisely, macros need to get coverage in the Getting Started
guide and other guides, but deserve a dedicated guide on the subject
going into the subject in full detail.
Hi Jean,
The references to "OpenOffice.org" should obviously be "LibreOffice.org", right?
Yup. The perils of copy and paste. 
I would suggest that macros should be covered in a totally independent
volume, not simply as a chapter in the Writer guide.
Well, Andrew Pitonyak has written "OOo Macros Explained" and is, I
believe, working on an update to that book, probably with a more generic
title. Disclosure: I was one of the technical editors for that book.
I also feel that Base should stay covered in the Getting Started
guide, even though it is certainly much less used than the other apps.
It *is* part of the suite, it does actually have enormous potential,
and should certainly be brought to the attention of new users.
Not necessarily at the level of detail of the current chapter, which is
excellent but far more tutorial than the rest of the book.
On the other hand, it might be interesting to have an appendix on
integrating e-mail into LibreOffice, using one of the various great OS
e-mail clients on the market.
Hmmm, yes, that is something many people want to do, isn't it? I never
think of that, since I would never use a word processor to write email,
though I know others do.
--Jean
As time permits I am working through an updated revision. With this entire OOo / LO thing, I think that I need to ask the artist to modify the cover art.... will wait until thing settle out to see what happens with the OOo name, Apache, and LO.
Riding the fence on what to do with this thing when I am done and how much extra stuff to add.
Hi
Andrew, ODFauthors might be able to help with advice.
I think the eventual aim here is to reduce the amount of branding in
documentation so that most of the books can be quickly re-branded and thus be
used for both OOo and LO. Of course LibreOffice has more functionality so it's
likely to be easier to write the 1st version for LO. Then just delete some
sections, swap covers and maybe screen-shots to re-release for OOo.
Judging from recent questions in the Users List a macro's guide would be very
much appreciated soon. Apache are likely to have OpenOffice as an "Incubator
Project" for quite a long time while preparing it to be a proper Apache
project.
Regards from
Tom
Hi again
I think Cover Art is something the Design Team here could do or are doing. It
might be worth asking them.
Regards from
Tom
HI
I think Thunderbird rather than Evolution. Or even Claws! I have been
struggling with Evolution at work for last couple of weeks. Admittedly i
haven't been able to focus on it. The Evo mailing lists have a few mentions
that Thunderbird and even Claws would have been much easier to get working with
an MS Exchange Server. There has just been a new release of Evo but they need
more devs to iron out bugs and stuff i think. We might need to see if we can
push some of the new LO devs into helping at Evo. Their documentation makes
LO's look very solid and well finished (including the Base Guide!). I really
hope Thunderbird is better! Otherwise it might be worth ignoring the email side
of things!
Regards from
Tom
Hi
I definitely agree that it makes sense to have brief coverage of relevant issues
in a guide even tho there is separate guide dedicated to the issues.
With macros there are likely to be issues that are fairly unique to each app.
Some things that people are likely to want to do in Calc are (hopefully) much
less relevant to Writer. How brief to keep that sort of thing is a tough
choice. Perhaps the introductory few paragraphs could be fairly similar in all
guides?
With Base documentation it might be great to copy that to the specifically Base
area and then cut the stuff that is in the Getting Started Guide?
As for email clients then i think we might need a disclaimer saying that they
are separate projects and then try to avoid corporate scenarios where they have
an MS Exchange Server. Perhaps just cover the simplest scenarios.
I think i am just re-stating what other people have said but it makes sense to
me and sounds like a good direction imo.
Regards from
Tom
Tom, this is also being discussed at ODFAuthors; Andrew is one of our
"macro gurus" and wrote "Getting Started with Macros" and the macro
chapter in the Calc Guide amongst other things -- including some helpful
macros for us.
In this case I can't see doing two editions of the book, unless LibO in
fact does have macro functionalities that OOo doesn't have. But that, of
course, is up to Andrew, the author.
Have you seen his website and his book? They are good resources for
people who want serious info on macros. (Shameless plug for Andrew)
http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php
http://www.pitonyak.org/book/
--Jean
Hi Jean,
Have you seen his website and his book? They are good resources for
people who want serious info on macros. (Shameless plug for Andrew)http://www.pitonyak.org/oo.php
http://www.pitonyak.org/book/
Just as a side remark, and hijacking this thread somewhat, it has always
amazed me how fragmented the market for books on OOo, and now LibO, has
been. From just the references I know of :
English language books : editors I have seen range from Lulu (individual
authoring), Sam's, the "for Dummies" series, probably a few others of
which I've not heard.
French language : a plethora of small publishing houses by different
authors, mostly OOo/LibO module-centric, e.g. Eyrolles is perhaps the
most well-known publisher. They also produce the excellent book on Macro
programming by Laurent Godard and Bernard Marcelly (in French only alas).
German language : books by Thomas Krumbein, covering each module of the
suite. There are others I have seen on my travels to Germany.
In my experience, it is fairly rare to see one editor publish in
multiple languages, the exception possibly being the "for Dummies" book.
I am at a loss to understand why this might be, after all, there are a
fair number of talented technical translators out there, but I suppose
that translation costs inevitably eat into editors' margins.
Alex
Hi Gary
Some schools do operate on a set programme, for example, at my primary school, although I teach French Second Language, I am in charge of teaching Word (Writer) basics to grades 4-5; PowerPoint (Impress) to grades 6,7 and until a couple years ago, our previous grade 7 teacher was in charge of teaching Excel (Calc) to grades 8 and advanced macros in preparation to high school. The "Getting Started Guide" would be a great addition to any Library collection for student referral/reference.
In my experience, there is still a small segment of the student population that do read manuals and they usually pass on their knowledge to others in their class.
I have thus far taught for 18 years as Math, Science and Technology consultant (primary and secondary schools); classroom teacher; computer classroom specialist and French Second Language specialist at various times during these years. I am presently off on disability for crushed spine and complications but hope to get back to class soon.
Cheers
Marc
I also think that Base should be covered, even if the information is sparse to start off with. The suite's modules should be covered. If they appear in the guide, then some of us will try it out or (in my case) present it to our students. I also realize that there are few who use the module which makes it hard to cover it, but if it can be covered, it would be nice.
Cheers
Marc
Hi Alex
Being new to the project (I have only been involved with LibreOffice and was not at OOo), from what I see, and, I'm sure that I am stating the obvious, it just looks like it is mostly for the lack of help. There are a few of the "front line" contributors outside of the dev team, and not enough of the (what I would call) "second line contributors" whose main task is to translate documentation into various languages. There are just too few people contributing. Plus, the front line contributors also take care of too many peripheral tasks that distract from their main contribution areas.
Cheers
Marc
I thought Alex was talking about commercial publishers (though he used
the term "editors"), who have their own criteria for deciding what might
sell enough to cover their costs and make a profit.
--Jean
Hi Jean,
I thought Alex was talking about commercial publishers (though he used
the term "editors"), who have their own criteria for deciding what might
sell enough to cover their costs and make a profit.
Indeed, publishing houses, as one might traditionally have considered
them before individual or small group publishing platforms became available.
Alex
Yes, sorry for the misunderstanding.
Cheers
Marc
Hi
Hmmm, it's a shame there doesn't seem to be a generic term covering OpenOffice,
LibreOffice and the various forks. I see why Andrew is standing back from
re-editing until the dust settles but it would be a shame to miss the
opportunity to get established fast. Perhaps at the beginning of the book it
could be made clear that throughout the book reference will be made to "Office"
meaning both OpenOffice and LibreOffice plus any relevant forks (NeoOffice?)?
Of course outside of the LibreOffice&OpenOffice community the word Office tends
to refer to something else but i use it at work in an increasingly ambiguous
way.
Regards from
Tom
Late in my (engineering and other things) career, I taught at both public and private K-12 schools, last teaching back in 2001. All of the schools were long computerized by then. During the computer labs, most of the kids were "taught" by teachers, who only a few months earlier typically taught subjects as social studies and the like and were most often only a day or three ahead of their students in subject matter--if that.
Most kids then learned office-suite apps mostly by intuition because those apps were designed that way from day-1. At one middle school, during the computer labs I dropped in on my kids on occasion. Once, one kid asked me to help him with a simple problem. I first inquired what the on-line help suggested. He did not even know (primarily because lazy teachers often do not teach such useful things...) that there even was any on-line help. So, I interrupted the class (although the newly-ordained computer-lab--previously an older social-studies teacher at the school--teacher initially objected) so that they all knew about how to use on-line help from the Help menu.
At another school--a private K-5 school where I taught the fifth grade, at one half-day in-session (kids go home early those days) the administration was discussing ways to save money, if possible. Waking up from a short nap, I suggested that the school fire the young woman who taught their computer labs because she was incompetent. To my surprise, that suggestion was instantly accepted, and the teachers were ordered to teach their own classes in the computer lab.
One little snag though. Not all the teachers then were computer literate. So, I took over some of the computer labs and had those teachers teach (or baby-sit) my fifth grade class during those times.
I again assert that people most often will not employ user guides, or even the on-line help, and will usually ask somebody else for help, as any problems occur.
Gary
________________________________
From: Gary Schnabl <gSchnabl@SWDetroit.com>
To: documentation@global.libreoffice.org
Sent: Thu, 30 June, 2011 23:50:09
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Proposal for major revision of
Getting Started Guide
On 6/30/2011 4:27 AM, Marc Paré wrote:
Based on my experience as a K-12 teacher a decade ago, I know that kids do not
bother to read texts, even if assigned as homework. So, users will do as much as
they can on their own before consulting the online help or user guides.One reason for low book sales is that much fewer users will bother to read
books nowadays.Gary
Hi Gary
Some schools do operate on a set programme, for example, at my primary school,
although I teach French Second Language, I am in charge of teaching Word
(Writer) basics to grades 4-5; PowerPoint (Impress) to grades 6,7 and until a
couple years ago, our previous grade 7 teacher was in charge of teaching Excel
(Calc) to grades 8 and advanced macros in preparation to high school. The
"Getting Started Guide" would be a great addition to any Library collection for
student referral/reference.In my experience, there is still a small segment of the student population that
do read manuals and they usually pass on their knowledge to others in their
class.I have thus far taught for 18 years as Math, Science and Technology consultant
(primary and secondary schools); classroom teacher; computer classroom
specialist and French Second Language specialist at various times during these
years. I am presently off on disability for crushed spine and complications but
hope to get back to class soon.Cheers
Marc
Late in my (engineering and other things) career, I taught at both public and
private K-12 schools, last teaching back in 2001. All of the schools were long
computerized by then. During the computer labs, most of the kids were "taught"
by teachers, who only a few months earlier typically taught subjects as social
studies and the like and were most often only a day or three ahead of their
students in subject matter--if that.
Most kids then learned office-suite apps mostly by intuition because those apps
were designed that way from day-1. At one middle school, during the computer
labs I dropped in on my kids on occasion. Once, one kid asked me to help him
with a simple problem. I first inquired what the on-line help suggested. He did
not even know (primarily because lazy teachers often do not teach such useful
things...) that there even was any on-line help. So, I interrupted the class
(although the newly-ordained computer-lab--previously an older social-studies
teacher at the school--teacher initially objected) so that they all knew about
how to use on-line help from the Help menu.
At another school--a private K-5 school where I taught the fifth grade, at one
half-day in-session (kids go home early those days) the administration was
discussing ways to save money, if possible. Waking up from a short nap, I
suggested that the school fire the young woman who taught their computer labs
because she was incompetent. To my surprise, that suggestion was instantly
accepted, and the teachers were ordered to teach their own classes in the
computer lab.
One little snag though. Not all the teachers then were computer literate. So, I
took over some of the computer labs and had those teachers teach (or baby-sit)
my fifth grade class during those times.
I again assert that people most often will not employ user guides, or even the
on-line help, and will usually ask somebody else for help, as any problems
occur.
Gary
Hi
I agree up to a point. Many people are sociable up to a point and often find it
easier to ask other people than look things up. I can think of a few exceptions
tho! People with even mild aspergers or other issues might tend to shy away
from people prefer books and computers. Various forms of arrogance or honour or
pride. Fear of being seen as weak. Shame. Fear of being indebted to anyone.
In many countries it goes against the culture and is considered rude to ask for
help. Some people just love books.
Sociable people are generally the people we notice most often. People that are
good at hiding away are less easy to notice.
Regards from
Tom
Hi Gary
Late in my (engineering and other things) career, I taught at both
public and private K-12 schools, last teaching back in 2001. All of the
schools were long computerized by then. During the computer labs, most
of the kids were "taught" by teachers, who only a few months earlier
typically taught subjects as social studies and the like and were most
often only a day or three ahead of their students in subject matter--if
that.Most kids then learned office-suite apps mostly by intuition because
those apps were designed that way from day-1. At one middle school,
during the computer labs I dropped in on my kids on occasion. Once, one
kid asked me to help him with a simple problem. I first inquired what
the on-line help suggested. He did not even know (primarily because lazy
teachers often do not teach such useful things...) that there even was
any on-line help. So, I interrupted the class (although the
newly-ordained computer-lab--previously an older social-studies teacher
at the school--teacher initially objected) so that they all knew about
how to use on-line help from the Help menu.At another school--a private K-5 school where I taught the fifth grade,
at one half-day in-session (kids go home early those days) the
administration was discussing ways to save money, if possible. Waking up
from a short nap, I suggested that the school fire the young woman who
taught their computer labs because she was incompetent. To my surprise,
that suggestion was instantly accepted, and the teachers were ordered to
teach their own classes in the computer lab.One little snag though. Not all the teachers then were computer
literate. So, I took over some of the computer labs and had those
teachers teach (or baby-sit) my fifth grade class during those times.I again assert that people most often will not employ user guides, or
even the on-line help, and will usually ask somebody else for help, as
any problems occur.Gary
I agree completely, human nature being what it is, we usually look for the shortest distance between points A and B. If there is a manual in between -- A->C->B, most will ignore the C until they need to go back to it. I find that, when following this teaching method the "going back to C" frustrates too many students and the level of achievement is not too impressive.
To circumvent this, we followed an established programme where use of the manuals is/was encouraged. After a couple of weeks, the students (and staff for that matter) knew how to get around the manuals and referred back to them exactly as they should -- as reference guides. The staff and students had to make use of the reference guides.
So, if the approach is a "guided learning programme" which includes use of manuals, then the success is greater. Students should not be left to "discover" steps in computing, they need to be guided. Although this takes a little longer at the start of the programme, the end results far outstrip the "let them find out on their own" strategy. After going through these initial steps the students may be left to "discover" more on their own (they have now mastered the use of reference guides) and move on to their of personal computing needs -- in our system we follow "Blooms taxonomy" of learning[1] which seems to work quite well with the students (and staff).
Cheers
Marc
Hi, Gary and All
>> Based on my experience as a K-12 teacher a decade ago, I know that
>> kids do not bother to read texts, even if assigned as homework. So,
>> users will do as much as they can on their own before consulting the
>> online help or user guides.
>>
>> One reason for low book sales is that much fewer users will bother to
>> read books nowadays.
>>
>>
>> Gary
>>
>>
>
> Hi Gary
>
> Some schools do operate on a set programme, for example, at my primary
> school, although I teach French Second Language, I am in charge of
> teaching Word (Writer) basics to grades 4-5; PowerPoint (Impress) to
> grades 6,7 and until a couple years ago, our previous grade 7 teacher
> was in charge of teaching Excel (Calc) to grades 8 and advanced macros
> in preparation to high school. The "Getting Started Guide" would be a
> great addition to any Library collection for student referral/reference.
>
> In my experience, there is still a small segment of the student
> population that do read manuals and they usually pass on their
> knowledge to others in their class.
>
> I have thus far taught for 18 years as Math, Science and Technology
> consultant (primary and secondary schools); classroom teacher;
> computer classroom specialist and French Second Language specialist at
> various times during these years. I am presently off on disability for
> crushed spine and complications but hope to get back to class soon.
>
> Cheers
>
> Marc
>Late in my (engineering and other things) career, I taught at both
public and private K-12 schools, last teaching back in 2001. All of the
schools were long computerized by then. During the computer labs, most
of the kids were "taught" by teachers, who only a few months earlier
typically taught subjects as social studies and the like and were most
often only a day or three ahead of their students in subject matter--if
that.Most kids then learned office-suite apps mostly by intuition because
those apps were designed that way from day-1. At one middle school,
during the computer labs I dropped in on my kids on occasion. Once, one
kid asked me to help him with a simple problem. I first inquired what
the on-line help suggested. He did not even know (primarily because lazy
teachers often do not teach such useful things...) that there even was
any on-line help. So, I interrupted the class (although the
newly-ordained computer-lab--previously an older social-studies teacher
at the school--teacher initially objected) so that they all knew about
how to use on-line help from the Help menu.At another school--a private K-5 school where I taught the fifth grade,
at one half-day in-session (kids go home early those days) the
administration was discussing ways to save money, if possible. Waking up
from a short nap, I suggested that the school fire the young woman who
taught their computer labs because she was incompetent. To my surprise,
that suggestion was instantly accepted, and the teachers were ordered to
teach their own classes in the computer lab.One little snag though. Not all the teachers then were computer
literate. So, I took over some of the computer labs and had those
teachers teach (or baby-sit) my fifth grade class during those times.I again assert that people most often will not employ user guides, or
even the on-line help, and will usually ask somebody else for help, as
any problems occur.Gary
--
Gary Schnabl
Southwest Detroit, two miles NORTH! of Canada--Windsor, that is...Technical Editor forum <http://TechnicalEditor.LivernoisYard.com/phpBB3/>
I have seen too many people who would not use any help or user guide to
find any information. Also, once most users can do their tasks they
rarely ever move beyond that point.