Collecting small things in the Wiki

Hi documentation members,

I'm looking for a place to collect little tips and explanations, for example "Why results the formula =-2^3 in 9?" or "Calc calcutates wrong! 9.87€ + 6.54€ results in 16.42€."

And also a place for HowTos, which are not a FAQ and which are to small for a guide, but might be useful. For example an explanation, how to get the coefficients of an interpolation polynomial.

It should be outside of your documentation workflow and needs to be easily edited, but have a basic predefined structure.

Kind regards
Regina

Regina

Hi documentation members,

I'm looking for a place to collect little tips and explanations, for
example "Why results the formula =-2^3 in 9?" or "Calc calcutates wrong!
9.87€ + 6.54€ results in 16.42€."

And also a place for HowTos, which are not a FAQ and which are to small
for a guide, but might be useful. For example an explanation, how to get
the coefficients of an interpolation polynomial.

It should be outside of your documentation workflow and needs to be
easily edited, but have a basic predefined structure.

Kind regards
Regina

Could this be integrated with the blog. We have a few how to blogs
already. I think any LO related topic could be discussed in a blog or
wiki. The difference, I believe, is the target with the blog being
straightforward how-tos or why-tos and the wiki having more depth for
topics.

Hi planas,

planas schrieb:

Regina

Hi documentation members,

I'm looking for a place to collect little tips and explanations, for
example "Why results the formula =-2^3 in 9?" or "Calc calcutates wrong!
9.87€ + 6.54€ results in 16.42€."

And also a place for HowTos, which are not a FAQ and which are to small
for a guide, but might be useful. For example an explanation, how to get
the coefficients of an interpolation polynomial.

It should be outside of your documentation workflow and needs to be
easily edited, but have a basic predefined structure.

Kind regards
Regina

Could this be integrated with the blog. We have a few how to blogs
already.

If it is "blog" as I understand blogs, then it will not be suitable. It is necessary, that it can be edited. It must be possible to correct errors, to add or remove something later on, to write mathematical content, to add pictures.

  I think any LO related topic could be discussed in a blog or

wiki. The difference, I believe, is the target with the blog being
straightforward how-tos or why-tos and the wiki having more depth for
topics.

Please have a look at our German Wiki http://www.libreofficewiki.de/. I look for something similar in English.

Kind regards
Regina

Hi :slight_smile:
In Calc i get -8 for
=-2^3
and for =2^3
it gives me 8. Also the
= 9.87 + 6.54
gives me 16.41. My locale is not set to allow euros at the moment.

I think the Euros problem is likely to be a rounding error if the 9.87 and/or
the 6.54 are the results of calculations. It is possible to bracket
calculations and use functions such as "Round" to round-off extra digits rather
than just using formatting to hide them. Often the "Round" functions tend to
drop numbers such as 9.869 to 9.860, well 9.86 so it's wise to test it and then
maybe add 0.005 before rounding-off. For example
=SUM(D6:D8)/3
would become
=ROUND((SUM(D6:D8))+0.005)

There probably is an agreed standard to the way particular functions such as
that are handled but proprietary products tend to break such agreements and then
keep that secret so that people are confused when the standards are adhered to,
hence various arguments in this mailing-list. OpenSource products can have
errors and mob-rule can over-ride most things but at least they don't try to
hide it either way even if it hurts them. So, it's worth checking by testing
before relying on results.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

We can make a section on the English docs wiki. A page was set up
awhile ago as a start for howtos but there is not yet any structure
for the items included.

Entries on the blog can be edited but only by people with a blog
account and editor permissions. The blog can include pictures but I am
not sure how much maths it can handle.

One possibility is to put the info on the wiki and then make a blog
entry linking to it. Or put the info in both places when the item is
suitable. The short tips would be good for the blog.

One advantage of the blog is that with tags and categories, it is easy
to search and a lot of ordinary users are familiar with searching
blogs.

With the blog, one person can write a draft and others with blog
access can review or edit it before publication. Wordpress is a very
versatile and powerful publishing tool which can be used in many
different ways.

Jean

Hi Tom,

this is not about the reason, but about where document the reasons, so that they can be found by users.

Tom Davies schrieb:

Hi :slight_smile:
In Calc i get -8 for
=-2^3
and for =2^3
it gives me 8.

My default, try =-3^2

   Also the

= 9.87 + 6.54
gives me 16.41. My locale is not set to allow euros at the moment.

I think the Euros problem is likely to be a rounding error if the 9.87 and/or
the 6.54 are the results of calculations. It is possible to bracket
calculations and use functions such as "Round" to round-off extra digits rather
than just using formatting to hide them. Often the "Round" functions tend to
drop numbers such as 9.869 to 9.860, well 9.86 so it's wise to test it and then
maybe add 0.005 before rounding-off. For example
=SUM(D6:D8)/3
would become
=ROUND((SUM(D6:D8))+0.005)

The point here is, where to put such explanations.

Kind regards
Regina

Hi :slight_smile:
3^2 does =9 ?

I thought all this was so obvious that it doesn't need explanation except
perhaps a brief note when you select the function using the fx button.

However, i do find that people who complain about a lack of space don't realise
that putting files back in the filing cabinet in the proper order means that

1. they have more space on their desk
2. that it becomes possible for people to find files without shouting.

I don't think it is our job to teach people maths. I do agree that the line
between teaching maths and giving hints&tips to business users is a very blurry
line sometimes and the rounding tip be a good example of that.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Hi Jean,

Jean Weber schrieb:

Hi planas,

planas schrieb:

Regina

Hi documentation members,

I'm looking for a place to collect little tips and explanations, for
example "Why results the formula =-2^3 in 9?" or "Calc calcutates wrong!
9.87€ + 6.54€ results in 16.42€."

And also a place for HowTos, which are not a FAQ and which are to small
for a guide, but might be useful. For example an explanation, how to get
the coefficients of an interpolation polynomial.

It should be outside of your documentation workflow and needs to be
easily edited, but have a basic predefined structure.

Kind regards
Regina

Could this be integrated with the blog. We have a few how to blogs
already.

If it is "blog" as I understand blogs, then it will not be suitable. It is necessary, that it can be edited. It must be possible to correct errors, to add or remove something later on, to write mathematical content, to add pictures.

  I think any LO related topic could be discussed in a blog or

wiki. The difference, I believe, is the target with the blog being
straightforward how-tos or why-tos and the wiki having more depth for
topics.

Please have a look at our German Wiki http://www.libreofficewiki.de/. I look for something similar in English.

Kind regards
Regina

We can make a section on the English docs wiki. A page was set up
awhile ago as a start for howtos but there is not yet any structure
for the items included.

Without a basic structure it will end up in a jumble. So such a structure is welcomed.

Entries on the blog can be edited but only by people with a blog
account and editor permissions. The blog can include pictures but I am
not sure how much maths it can handle.

One possibility is to put the info on the wiki and then make a blog
entry linking to it. Or put the info in both places when the item is
suitable. The short tips would be good for the blog.

One advantage of the blog is that with tags and categories, it is easy
to search and a lot of ordinary users are familiar with searching
blogs.

With the blog, one person can write a draft and others with blog
access can review or edit it before publication. Wordpress is a very
versatile and powerful publishing tool which can be used in many
different ways.

I consider "blog account and editor permission" and becoming acquainted with yet another tool to be a too high hurdle. At least I don't like it.

Kind regards
Regina

Hi Tom,
Tom Davies schrieb:

Hi :slight_smile:
3^2 does =9 ?

That's not the problem. But -3^2 result in 9 and that is the problem.
http://openoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=26755

Kind regards
Regina

I agree that a structure is essential. And I understand about the hurdle of learning a new tool, even an easy one.

I have now looked at the German wiki pages you referenced. They are much more complete and better organised than anything the English team has done. Perhaps we should have someone translate these pages to English, if we can find someone (more than one person) to do it. Oh, there are so many things we could do if we only had enough people to do them!

Jean

Hi :slight_smile:

Regina, this is not a criticism of you but just some of my anger at the world
that gave me a fairly decent education in sciences and maths and made me
practically unemployable as a result.

Ok, again

-3 x -3 = 9

I think people tend to expect the - to make the result -9. Perhaps they expect
the result to be the same as -(3^2) which is a completely different thing.
Again this is more about people lack of maths understanding than about
spreadsheets. An evening course or on-line course about maths is the answer,
not documentation for a spreadsheet program.

In the bug-report the first comment complains that spreadsheet programs stick to

internationally agreed maths standard for the order in which to apply functions,

Bodmas (stands for "Brackets, of/division, multiplication, add, subtract").
Choosing a non-standards order makes higher functions exponentially difficult or

even impossible. Before the 0 was borrowed from Arabic notation simple
multiplication and division was only possible by people with a university degree

level of maths skills. Choosing to go against Bodmas would be similarly
catastrophic.

Business users like to left align numbers which makes simple addition more
difficult at a glance, for example

£34
£300

Hi :slight_smile:
I was wrong.

I have been thinking a bit more. By Bodmas the subtraction is the last thing on
the list and the multiplication should be done before that. There is an
apparent ambiguity here and people with a maths background 'should' expect that
and either test it or use brackets, at least that is my excuse.

An equation that results in -2 and then the spreadsheet takes that result and
squares it then the result 'should' be (-2)^2 = +4 but the rest of the time -2^2
'should' be -(2^2)

Regard from
Tom :slight_smile:

From: Regina Henschel <rb.henschel@t-online.de>
To: documentation@global.libreoffice.org
Sent: Fri, 10 June, 2011 23:39:01
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Collecting small things in the
Wiki

Hi Tom,
Tom Davies schrieb:
> Hi :slight_smile:
> 3^2 does =9 ?

That's not the problem. But -3^2 result in 9 and that is the problem.
http://openoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=26755

Kind regards
Regina

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Regina

Hi planas,

planas schrieb:
> Regina
>
>
>> Hi documentation members,
>>
>> I'm looking for a place to collect little tips and explanations, for
>> example "Why results the formula =-2^3 in 9?" or "Calc calcutates wrong!
>> 9.87€ + 6.54€ results in 16.42€."
>>
>> And also a place for HowTos, which are not a FAQ and which are to small
>> for a guide, but might be useful. For example an explanation, how to get
>> the coefficients of an interpolation polynomial.
>>
>> It should be outside of your documentation workflow and needs to be
>> easily edited, but have a basic predefined structure.
>>
>> Kind regards
>> Regina
>
>
>
> Could this be integrated with the blog. We have a few how to blogs
> already.

If it is "blog" as I understand blogs, then it will not be suitable. It
is necessary, that it can be edited. It must be possible to correct
errors, to add or remove something later on, to write mathematical
content, to add pictures.

  I think any LO related topic could be discussed in a blog or
> wiki. The difference, I believe, is the target with the blog being
> straightforward how-tos or why-tos and the wiki having more depth for
> topics.

Please have a look at our German Wiki http://www.libreofficewiki.de/. I
look for something similar in English.

Kind regards
Regina

Wordpress has an editable blog for LO. Also, I prefer to send a preview
to a few people on the documentation team before I post anything. I want
errors to be caught before they are posted.

My I distinction is a blog is for relatively "easy" topics rather than
complex topics. The difference is the complex topic may involve either
an apparent work around or real work around to a problem or the
discussion of a complex topic. Your examples above may be better in a
wiki because they touch on rounding by computers and operation order of
precedence, both could be confusing for non-mathematician, scientist, or
engineer. Both could easily get messy for many users.

I think my distinction is more about the length of the post and amount
of detail in the content.

Hi Tom.
I think it is bedmas - brackets, exponentiation, division,
multiplication, addition, subtraction.
There will be a mathematical standard for this, so I suppose we are
theorizing.
To remove all doubt, if you wanted (-3)^2 you would use the brackets
thus and if you wanted -(3^2) you would bracket that way. If there is no
"Standard" then may be with a leading '-' sign LO should ask or auto
correct to one of the bracketed options so it is clear what LO will do
with the number. I have always taken -3^3 = -27 same as LO does now, was
like that throughout university, but who is to say it is correct.
steve

Hi Jean,

I have now looked at the German wiki pages you referenced. They are much more complete and better organised than anything the English team has done. Perhaps we should have someone translate these pages to English, if we can find someone (more than one person) to do it. Oh, there are so many things we could do if we only had enough people to do them!

Silverstripe came with an automatic linking system for translations, but
it got turned off after discussion because it was felt :

1) that the English (or International) part of the site should be the
lead and reference for other parts of the site ; and
2) the translated pages which were automatically linked to the original
end being part of the native-lang subsite and not in the corresponding
EN part of the wiki.

At the moment, if you want to translate on the wiki, you have to have 2
windows open, the first with the original language wiki page, and the
second, a new wiki page on the English part of the site. For me, quite
frankly, this is too much of an effort when the underlying system
already has the capability to link translations automatically to the
underlying original document. I don't like wikis in general anyway
because they tend to end up having stuff all over the place, improperly
indexed or categorized and it just seems to be a free-for-all. The wiki
was set up knowingly with an extremely open approach to encourage
contribution, but the downside of this free ranging management is that
anyone can contribute anything and put it anywhere they more or less
want, and name it in more or less anyway they want to. So much for
having a cohesive, easy to search, easy to update, and easy to maintain
information system. Trying to find out whether something has been
updated, or even if it already exists, requires a lot of effort on the
part of those who are conscientious enough not to want to waste their
time writing something that has already been done or something similar.

I can translate from German to English, French to English and back again
no problem, but I will not trawl the wiki in search of things that "need
translating" from one to the other.

Alex

Hi Regina,

I'm looking for a place to collect little tips and explanations

If you want a wiki, I see only the TDF Wiki and libreofficewiki.de in
place at the moment.

The TDF Wiki you can use right away, but AFAIK there is no Documentation
section yet (I mean where knowledge bits are created in the wiki
itself), it just serves as project whiteboard and as document repository
for the User Guides.

Did you ask Martin if libreofficewiki.de can be tweaked to become
multilingual (and if he is willing to do/host it)? That would be the
quickest solution in my eyes as the German structure could be
transferred to the english instance by just translating the items. I
know that MoinMoin (the wiki engine used) can be set up as mulitilingual
wiki farm but it needs further investigation to see if/how it supports
the concrete needs of this community.

Regards,
Nino

Hi Regina,

I'm looking for a place to collect little tips and explanations

If you want a wiki, I see only the TDF Wiki and libreofficewiki.de in
place at the moment.

The TDF Wiki you can use right away, but AFAIK there is no Documentation
section yet (I mean where knowledge bits are created in the wiki
itself), it just serves as project whiteboard and as document repository
for the User Guides.

Nino, that is true but only because no one has created any content on
the wiki. There is no reason why people should not also create wiki
content there.

Jean

Hi :slight_smile:
I went a little crazy last night. Tooo little chocolate in last few days and
then had so much i passed out. Sorry about posts, especially to Regina.

More at bottom to answer Steve
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

From: Steve Edmonds <steve.edmonds@ptglobal.com>
To: documentation@global.libreoffice.org
Sent: Sat, 11 June, 2011 5:29:51
Subject: Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Collecting small things in the
Wiki

> Hi :slight_smile:
>
> Regina, this is not a criticism of you but just some of my anger at the
world

> that gave me a fairly decent education in sciences and maths and made me
> practically unemployable as a result.
>
>
> Ok, again
>
> -3 x -3 = 9
>
> I think people tend to expect the - to make the result -9. Perhaps they
expect

> the result to be the same as -(3^2) which is a completely different thing.

> Again this is more about people lack of maths understanding than about
> spreadsheets. An evening course or on-line course about maths is the
answer,

> not documentation for a spreadsheet program.
>
>
> In the bug-report the first comment complains that spreadsheet programs
stick to

>
> internationally agreed maths standard for the order in which to apply
functions,

>
> Bodmas (stands for "Brackets, of/division, multiplication, add, subtract").

> Choosing a non-standards order makes higher functions exponentially
difficult or

>
> even impossible. Before the 0 was borrowed from Arabic notation simple
> multiplication and division was only possible by people with a university
degree

>
> level of maths skills. Choosing to go against Bodmas would be similarly
> catastrophic.
>
> Business users like to left align numbers which makes simple addition more
> difficult at a glance, for example
>
> £34
> £300
> ======
> £640 ?!!?
>
> Maths people and accountants tend to shudder at left aligned numbers, or
realise

>
> they are likely to make a lot of cash from these people. A right-justified
list

>
> makes it much more obvious
>
> £34
> £300
> =====
> £334 in a much more obvious way. Ok, its a stupid example with only 2
numbers

> in the list but imagine with a LOT more numbers in the list, say 20 to 30
per

> page.
>
>
> Back to the expected result of -9. What is the square root? -3 x 3 is not
> really right. In fact we are now getting towards 2 dimensional numbers
such as

> "imaginary numbers" and perhaps even getting close to chaos theory and
fractal

> dimensions.
>
>
> In the bug-report the first post shows a stunning lack of understanding
about

> maths, roughly along the lines of demanding that the spreadsheet program
should

> give £640 in my example of adding numbers.
>
>
> "
> I definitly see this as a bug and confirm it. Here's what I did:
>
> 1: Input "=-3^2+4" into a spreadsheet cell, result is 13
> 2: Input "=4-3^2" into another cell, result is -5
> 3: Input "=-(3^2)+4" into a third cell, result is -5
>
> The problem here seems to be that the program attaches the negative sign to
the
> 3 in step one before doing the square, which it should not, unless
manipulated
> by parentheses like this: "(-3)^2".
> "
>
> In 1 the result is 13 because the first function done is -3 x -3 = 9, and
then

> add the 4 to give 13
> In 2 the result is due to an ambiguity that is normally resolved by using
the

> standards method of afaik 3 x 3 = 9, and then 4 - 9 = -5 People with maths

> skills generally realise there is a potential problem with the ambiguity
here

> and might try fixing it by using brackets eg = 4 + (-3^2) which gives us 13

> 'obviously' since the inside of the bracket is done before applying the
stuff

> outside the brackets.
>
> In 3 the result is -5 because the bracketed stuff is done first giving us +9

> again, then outside the bracket that is made -+9 = -9 and then the 4 is
added as

> expected.
>
>
> This is maths, not spreadsheet stuff, unless i made a mistake in how #2
should

> be treated according to the Bodmas standards (in which case the bug-report
needs

> to be fixed asap) but afaik i'm right. Even if i am wrong this is not
really a

> job for documentation except as a brief note that 'common-sense' sometimes
> over-rides Bodmas but will hopefully be fixed soon.
>
> Regards from
> Tom :slight_smile:
>
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Regina Henschel <rb.henschel@t-online.de>
> To: documentation@global.libreoffice.org
> Sent: Fri, 10 June, 2011 23:39:01
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Collecting small things in the
Wiki
>
> Hi Tom,
> Tom Davies schrieb:
>
>> Hi :slight_smile:
>> 3^2 does =9 ?
>>
> That's not the problem. But -3^2 result in 9 and that is the problem.
> http://openoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=26755
>
> Kind regards
> Regina
>
> -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to
documentation+help@global.libreoffice.org
> Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
> List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/documentation/
> All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be
deleted
>
>
>
Hi Tom.
I think it is bedmas - brackets, exponentiation, division,
multiplication, addition, subtraction.
There will be a mathematical standard for this, so I suppose we are
theorizing.
To remove all doubt, if you wanted (-3)^2 you would use the brackets
thus and if you wanted -(3^2) you would bracket that way. If there is no
"Standard" then may be with a leading '-' sign LO should ask or auto
correct to one of the bracketed options so it is clear what LO will do
with the number. I have always taken -3^3 = -27 same as LO does now, was
like that throughout university, but who is to say it is correct.
steve

Hi :slight_smile:
Yes the o in Bodmas doesn't make much sense and is not intuitive but i think
it's meant to mean "Orders" referring to orders, powers, indices & exponents,
NOT "omg not this again". In the US they don't have Brackets, they have
simplified it to Parenthesis so a common mnemonic there is Pedmas. Oh and they
simplified Exponents to Exponentiation along with dialogues to dialogz and
Catherine to Katz. I cheekily use tho instead of though but it hasn't kort-on
yet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_operations#Mnemonics

Here are guides to show what level of maths we are talking about
http://www.primaryresources.co.uk/maths/mathsC3.htm
http://www.mathsisfun.com/operation-order-bodmas.html
Primary is about equivalent of Elementary in the US. It's from about 4 to about
12 with some regional variations of 1 year, ie sometimes 3 to 11.

The problem and ambiguity arise in computing because there is no difference
between - 1 and -1 in computers but in handwritten notes it is easier to
distinguish whether it is a value of (-1) or the value is (1) and then needs to
be subtracted from whatever precedes the -1 (such as the implied 0). There is a
note halfway down this page (or halfway up) about problems with computers and
calculators.

http://www.purplemath.com/modules/exponent5.htm

At school i was told-off for writing a 9 that looked like a 7. I tried to
explain that it was a 7 but that further annoyed the teacher who demanded that i
explain why it looked like a 9. There is just no arguing with some people.

I think that compatibility with Excel is important and i am not sure if we
should follow their way or the Internationally agreed standards as taught in
primary school (except to business people).
Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Hi Nino,

Nino Novak schrieb:

Hi Regina,

I'm looking for a place to collect little tips and explanations

If you want a wiki, I see only the TDF Wiki and libreofficewiki.de in
place at the moment.

The TDF Wiki you can use right away, but AFAIK there is no Documentation
section yet (I mean where knowledge bits are created in the wiki
itself), it just serves as project whiteboard and as document repository
for the User Guides.

There is a "document" section, but it contains only the guides.

Did you ask Martin if libreofficewiki.de can be tweaked to become
multilingual (and if he is willing to do/host it)? That would be the
quickest solution in my eyes as the German structure could be
transferred to the english instance by just translating the items. I
know that MoinMoin (the wiki engine used) can be set up as mulitilingual
wiki farm but it needs further investigation to see if/how it supports
the concrete needs of this community.

I have contacted Martin. He told me that the UI is already in English too and the UI-language is determined by browser or personal preference settings.

He will think about further details and contact the owner of the wiki.

Kind regards
Regina

Jean, I know - but in my eyes there are two reasons for prefering
libreofficewiki over tdf wiki for such purposes at the moment: first,
I'd generally prefer to expand/improve an existing knowledge base
instead of creating a new one.

Second, a wiki dedicated exclusively to serve as end user knowledge base
has - at least for me - some usability advantages over a mixed wiki
serving half for project needs.

So that's my actual opinion, but certainly everybody has the freedom to
prove me wrong and start a new knowledge base in the tdf wiki :wink:

Nino