Use of "Euro" "Euros" "euro" "euros" and thousand separator and decimal point

Some of us on the marketing and USmarketing teams are having a discussion on usage and I thought that perhaps someone on the documentation team could help us.

1. Use of "Euro". It was pointed out that the European Community had issued its verdict saying that "Euro" should not be pluralized (i.e. "Euros") in any situation. So, should we then standardize our use of "Euro" to this for all documentation, website and marketing materials?

There was also a discussion, with no decision about the treatment of the word "Euro". Would we write: 50 000 euro or 50 000 Euro or should we rather write Euro 50 000 or euro 50 000 or EU50 000 ?

2. The setting of the the thousand separator and the decimal point. There seems to be multiple acceptable usages. For example all of the following seem to be correct:

50 000.05
50,000.05
50.000,05
50 000.05
50.000,05

Is there an already "agreed to" use of the thousand separator and decimal point for the LibreOffice documentation team?

We could coordinate this throughout our documentation, website and marketing teams.

References:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_mark
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Decimal_separator (this is Wikipedia's style manual -- do we have a LibreOffice style manual that the documentation team follows?)

Cheers

Marc

The ' European Commission <http://ec.europa.eu/index_en.htm>'-website
has an article about it
http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/euro/cash/symbol/index_en.htm

Some of us on the marketing and USmarketing teams are having a
discussion on usage and I thought that perhaps someone on the
documentation team could help us.

1. Use of "Euro". It was pointed out that the European Community had
issued its verdict saying that "Euro" should not be pluralized (i.e.
"Euros") in any situation. So, should we then standardize our use of
"Euro" to this for all documentation, website and marketing materials?

The question holds its answer: yes just because it is the *standard*

There was also a discussion, with no decision about the treatment of the
word "Euro". Would we write: 50 000 euro or 50 000 Euro or should we
rather write Euro 50 000 or euro 50 000 or EU50 000?

It depends.

I'd write either 50.000 Euro (for plain text, as stated in 1.) or EUR 50.000 (banking standard)
The decimal separator here is the froggies' one

2. The setting of the the thousand separator and the decimal point.
There seems to be multiple acceptable usages. For example all of the
following seem to be correct:

50 000.05
50,000.05

EN

50.000,05

FR

50 000.05
50.000,05

FR again

Just my two (Euro-)cents

Thanks.

So, judging by this page: http://ec.europa.eu/economy_finance/publications/publication6336_en.pdf , the only case where the treatment of "euro" is capitalized is in German. In all other cases, all other countries use the lower-case "euro". Could we then standardize our documentation, website and marketing materials to "euro" for international use? Unless of course the material is for German audience. There is NO plural on "euro" as directed by the EU Commission.

50 000 euro

Cheers

Marc

This does not give any answer. If we are writing international material, could we come up with a LibreOffice style? Which one should we adopt for documentation, website, marketing materials that are international?

Cheers

Marc

For punctuation, and the currency, it all depends on the language the
documentation is in.

some personal notes from /me :
* I prefer 50.000,05 over 50 000,05
* I also could live with using "EUR 50.000" everywhere, and not using
"50.000 euro" (with this last word in the proper language)

Hi Marc

2. The setting of the the thousand separator and the decimal point.
There seems to be multiple acceptable usages. For example all of the
following seem to be correct:

50 000.05
50,000.05

EN

50.000,05

FR

50 000.05
50.000,05

FR again

Just my two (Euro-)cents

This does not give any answer. If we are writing international material,
could we come up with a LibreOffice style? Which one should we adopt for
documentation, website, marketing materials that are international?

The place of the punctuation in numbers depends on the countries and the system used, so you won't have a standard here. There is countries using arabic numerals with decimal point, other using arabic numerals with decimal coma and some other systems too. Also the currency name can be used as a suffix or prefix depending on the country.

Kind regards
Sophie

Hi Luuk,

2. The setting of the the thousand separator and the decimal point.
There seems to be multiple acceptable usages. For example all of the
following seem to be correct:

50 000.05
50,000.05

EN

50.000,05

FR

50 000.05
50.000,05

FR again

Just my two (Euro-)cents

This does not give any answer. If we are writing international
material, could we come up with a LibreOffice style? Which one should
we adopt for documentation, website, marketing materials that are
international?

Cheers

Marc

For punctuation, and the currency, it all depends on the language the
documentation is in.

Not only, a documentation can be in French but the place of the decimal mark will be different if it is used in Belgium, Switzerland or Burkina Faso, and then should be adapted.

Kind regards
Sophie

Hi Sophie:

The place of the punctuation in numbers depends on the countries and the
system used, so you won't have a standard here. There is countries using
arabic numerals with decimal point, other using arabic numerals with
decimal coma and some other systems too. Also the currency name can be
used as a suffix or prefix depending on the country.

Kind regards
Sophie

Thanks for the reply. My question is whether we decide on a format for our international related material or do we let the author of these materials decide?

For example, if I were to put together a French flyer for the funding drive, if this is the case then the flyer would have "50,000.05 euro" (this is just a number for the sake of this discussion).

I think if we were to settle on a standard "LibreOffice international style" then we could develop material that would not have to be re-edited. Would we then use the "50,000.05 euro" in France or would it be "50 000,05" euro?

Would it not make sense to standardise to a style that would be applied to all three groups: documentation, website and marketing? I think the documentation group should have the official decision on this as you are the experts on style and format.

Cheers

Marc

maybe i should have written (or is more correct) :
For punctuation, and the currency, it all depends on the country the
documentation is intented for...

Hi Marc,

Hi Sophie:

The place of the punctuation in numbers depends on the countries and the
system used, so you won't have a standard here. There is countries using
arabic numerals with decimal point, other using arabic numerals with
decimal coma and some other systems too. Also the currency name can be
used as a suffix or prefix depending on the country.

Kind regards
Sophie

Thanks for the reply. My question is whether we decide on a format for
our international related material or do we let the author of these
materials decide?

I think it should be adapted to the region you're directing your marketing, for a better quality.

For example, if I were to put together a French flyer for the funding
drive, if this is the case then the flyer would have "50,000.05 euro"
(this is just a number for the sake of this discussion).

I think if we were to settle on a standard "LibreOffice international
style" then we could develop material that would not have to be
re-edited. Would we then use the "50,000.05 euro" in France or would it
be "50 000,05" euro?

it needs a coma for France

Would it not make sense to standardise to a style that would be applied
to all three groups: documentation, website and marketing? I think the
documentation group should have the official decision on this as you are
the experts on style and format.

I won't be for a standardization here. As I said above, for quality of marketing, I won't distribute the same flyers in France, Belgium or Switzerland. Even in Belgium, most of the time it should be exactly the same in the 3 languages of the country, plus sometimes in English if the event is in Brussels.
For French language, we chose France as the reference, so the website will be in fr-FR, but documentation will reflect the country in which it is distributed. When I was teaching in Burkina Faso, I changed all the names and the examples used in the documentation to adapt them. But it's only my 2 ariarys :wink:

Kind regards
Sophie

Thanks to all for your advice.

Cheers

Marc

Hi Marc,

I think if we were to settle on a standard "LibreOffice international
style" then we could develop material that would not have to be
re-edited. Would we then use the "50,000.05 euro" in France or would it
be "50 000,05" euro?

Would it not make sense to standardise to a style that would be applied
to all three groups: documentation, website and marketing? I think the
documentation group should have the official decision on this as you are
the experts on style and format.

I don't think you will get "standardisation" along the lines you are
thinking because each person who will be translating for their target
audience will adapt the presentation to the needs of that country /
language. This has always been the way, and I don't know of any
translator who does it any other way.

If the documentation is in English, then let the English presentation
preside, ie, a comma for the thousands separator, and a dot/fullstop for
the decimals - as for space as a thousands separator, personally, I'm
not a fan, but that's just MHO.

As for Euro, the shortened form I see the most often is the standardised
banking form, i.e. EUR, much like GBP, USD, AUD, CDN, etc.

If I have to translate something from English to French I will correct
the presentation accordingly for that target and vice-versa.

Alex

________________________________
From: Marc Paré <marc@marcpare.com>
To: documentation@libreoffice.org
Sent: Sat, 19 February, 2011 13:33:37
Subject: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: Use of "Euro" "Euros" "euro" "euros"
and thousand separator and decimal point

Le 2011-02-19 06:34, Marc Paré a écrit :

Some of us on the marketing and USmarketing teams are having a
discussion on usage and I thought that perhaps someone on the
documentation team could help us.

1. Use of "Euro". It was pointed out that the European Community had
issued its verdict saying that "Euro" should not be pluralized (i.e.
"Euros") in any situation. So, should we then standardize our use of
"Euro" to this for all documentation, website and marketing materials?

There was also a discussion, with no decision about the treatment of the
word "Euro". Would we write: 50 000 euro or 50 000 Euro or should we
rather write Euro 50 000 or euro 50 000 or EU50 000 ?

2. The setting of the the thousand separator and the decimal point.
There seems to be multiple acceptable usages. For example all of the
following seem to be correct:

50 000.05
50,000.05
50.000,05
50 000.05
50.000,05

Is there an already "agreed to" use of the thousand separator and
decimal point for the LibreOffice documentation team?

We could coordinate this throughout our documentation, website and
marketing teams.

References:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_mark
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Decimal_separator
(this is Wikipedia's style manual -- do we have a LibreOffice style
manual that the documentation team follows?)

Cheers

Marc

Thanks to all for your advice.

Cheers

Marc

--

Hi :slight_smile:

i think the general case for English speaking users and perhaps 'most' of Europe
is to use a comma "," as separator for thousands, millions etc and a full stop
"." as a decimal point. So, examples would be
50, 000, 000.05 or far more usually
50,000,000.05
Also if there are columns of numbers then it is better to line up the units.
Things like

503
50
5,560
are sloppy but sometimes it is too time-consuming to use the proper tab-stops or
tables with number-cells right-aligned instead of left-aligned.

Levels of precision used in examples has been ridiculous. We really don't need
more than 2 significant figures although we often go to 3 or 4. Most of the
examples have gone to 7 and my first two went to 10! Usually people use "k" or
"K" or "x10^3" for thousands but sometimes people have been sloppy and just used
000's which is appalling imo.

Machines based on binary use 1024 as the closest number to 1k but since salesmen
got hold of that we have no idea whether
1k = 1,024 or 1,000 or 1,000/1,024k
especially because different programs use different methods.

When we get to 1,000,000 being represented by "M" (NOT "m") or "x10^6" we have
no idea whether

1M = 1,024,000 or 1,048,576 or the wrong ways around.

For Gb it's much worse of course. There is nothing we can do to try to clear
this up except to realise that quoting numbers beyond 2 significant figures is
inaccurate or misleading.

In accountancy end-of-year accounts are signed-off as being "true and fair" NOT
"precise" and not "accurate" either!

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Hi Tom,

i think the general case for English speaking users and perhaps 'most' of Europe
is to use a comma "," as separator for thousands, millions etc and a full stop
"." as a decimal point. So, examples would be
50, 000, 000.05 or far more usually
50,000,000.05

What is your understanding of "most" of Europe :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Decimal_mark

does not support the justification of your statement, in fact, quite the
contrary.

Alex

Hi

Ahah, thanks. I looked further down the page and saw the blue covered all of
the main English speaking countries as well as India, part of China and possibly
Japan but none of the rest of Europe except England.

Regards from
Tom :slight_smile:

Thanks Alex. The question was taken from the point of view of the international site or documentation, marketing materials for general use. But yes, tailor for groups is fine.

Cheers

Marc

Note that there are better characters than a plain space for separating
groups of digits!

Use "figure space" (U+2007) to make columns line up.
123456 vs 123456
12 456 vs 12 456
123 56 vs 123 45

Use "punctuation space" (U+2008) normally when using a space instead of a
comma/dot separator. It is supposed to be the same width as one of those.
12,348,987 12 348 987 vs 12 348 987.

Or, use "thin space" (U+2009): 12 345 678 vs 12 345 678. This usually
looks right in any font.

Ah! Good point on this. I'll try to remember this.

Thanks.

Cheers

Marc