Re: http://openoffice.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=3959 -- Outline view

Hi Chris,

On Fri, 2012-12-28 at 19:33 +0000, Chris Williams wrote:
> > Michael Meeks wrote:
> >     This is the developers list. It is used by developers to discuss
> > development: creating and fixing code, patch review and all sorts of
> > developery stuff.
> >
> >     It is not a suitable forum for people to post feature wish-lists.

        Sorry pardon - it is also not a suitable forum for people to discuss
feature wish-lists :-) This is because of the problem of being:

> > deluged in non-actionable and de-motivating E-mail from users: all of
> > whom are missing some feature, and/or have some suggestion that in
> > turn would drive away the very developers we are seeking to mentor,
> > encourage & assist.

        Your mail is totally inappropriate in this forum. Please head to the
discuss list to rant about how awful the developers are and how they are
not implementing XYZ pet feature that -you- -know- is the one feature
that really matters. Hopefully after a while in that forum, you'll
discover that in fact there are hundreds of individuals with equally
polarised views about other single features. After time, you -may- start
to get a sense of the scale of the task we have set ourselves :-) Then
perhaps you can come back and do some hacking with us to help fix one
such issue.

        Failing that, you're in risk of getting on some moderation list
here :-)

> I can understand both sides of the problem here, I have seen many blogs from
> journalists who support Linux but say that it will never become mainstream until
> the developers give the users what the users want regardless whether the
> developers like what the users want or not. 

        Journalists are obliged to write -something- in their pieces, otherwise
there will be no content. This is a particularly helpful saw. Who the
user is and what they really want is totally open-ended and whenever
bold moves are made to help new users, the project gets flamed by some.
Currently those who pay contributors - get the fixes and features they
pay for, un-paid volunteers fix and implement whatever they have a
passion for. Previous attempts to coerce volunteers to do XYZ task /
bug-fix, and/or companies to invest in un-paid work have been a total
failure - instead we try to make it as easy and fun as we possibly can
to contribute to LibreOffice.

        Then again if you -really- want to get involved in working out "what
the users want" in some hard-data / scientific fashion - generating real
polling data, doing surveys as to what features people are most missing
etc. - that would be -really- useful. Impressively researched, hard data
helps drive our collective decision making really effectively. There are
lots of ideas here - surveys, analytics in the core, document analysis
etc. many of them need programming support: please do get involved there
you can make a big difference.

> The current situation is like going to a pub who have a Trad Jazz band on,
> playing what they like, not what the customers want to hear and The Jazz band
> getting upset when all the customers leave. 

        Or is it like a free open-air bring-an-instrument open concert where
there are a large number of players working together to make a beautiful
sound, carefully train up new instrumentalists (even those with no prior
experience), and yet getting heckled by those with (apparently) little
interest in contributing positively and who don't have to be there. Most
such analogies are seriously flawed :-)

> The danger here is that I and others would be prepared to pay a reasonable
> amount for the features in Libreoffice that we want.

        Then that is no problem. This is a great way to contribute; there are
various companies and individuals you can contract privately to fix a
given feature. All creative hard-work done generating funding for
development work is much appreciated. I'm happy to give you a list of
contacts to do such work privately - it doesn't really belong on tis
list either - so just poke me.

> We all know that is the start of a slippery slope.

        Paying people to develop Free Software is a slippery slope ? I think
not - it's an ideal we're trying to grow over here: to build an ever
more credible and sustainable ecosystem such as you see (eg.) around the
Linux Kernel.

>  So, here is the deal, you give us what we want and we will let you 

        I look forward to you 'letting me' get on with what I think is best for
the project with a bunch of friends and contributors I love ;-> Please
follow up on the discuss list, CC me there if you want a response - I'm
most happy to help you get plugged into contributing in some way that
helps you meet your goals for the project.

        All the best,

                Michael.

-- 
michael.meeks@suse.com  <><, Pseudo Engineer, itinerant idiot