Re: [Libreoffice] [PATCH] [UX] Rename "Default Formatting" --> "Clear Direct Formatting"

Hi Octavio,

thanks for the great explanation - and also Cor for adding his support
concerning the change as well.

Am Freitag, den 21.01.2011, 20:49 -0800 schrieb Octavio Alvarez:
> <christoph@dogmatux.com> wrote:
[..]
> Well, this is not true in LibreOffice anymore. This got implemented in
> ooo-build almost one year ago and ported to LibreOffice. See initial
> discussion at
> http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/ooo-build/2010-February/000540.html
>
> and applied patches at
> http://web.archiveorange.com/archive/v/Ct2xycq5ewxra2Ornv8S

Oh, good to know - to be honest, I partly relied on the help system. And
in a recent LibreOffice build, it still states "and formatting by
character styles", see:
http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/MAUtH-sKeCLVDY4rSR4UWw?feat=directlink

> > The terminology "Default" is used throughout the office suite. For
> > example, the buttons "Default" resets all manual changes of an derived
> > style (Stylist).
>
> Didn't find it. I see "Reset" and "Standard". Is it any of those?

Grrr, sorry - you are right. I've referred to "Standard" (Funnily, I
used the German version stating "Standard" and translated to
"Default" ... a never make assumptions case *g*)

> > And "direct" might also be unknown to those users who are unsure what
> > "default formatting" is.
>
> *Exactly*, because this change is NOT for those that don't use styles.
> For them, it is a menu item that might as well not be there. This is for
> those of us who *know* how to use styles. There is no loss there.
>
> For us, we know the difference between formatting that is applied by
> the style and formatting that works as an override. We call it "hard
> formatting" or "direct formatting".

What I'm a bit unsure about is, whether the change should support the
people "who know", or if it should take care that people "get to know" -
just a generic comment.

[...]

> > The string length will make the menu wider, which gets an issue when the
> > English text gets translated into foreign languages. Especially since we
> > do have many sub-menus within this menu. Same applies to "Clear All
> > Formatting" you are planning to change.
>
> Of course, sorry about that. :-/ I'll need help here to make the change
> as friendly as possible to others.

I CC Sophie to ask her how to check that ... Sophie, the subject states
the menu item change which may become rather long when translated, and
thus, a usability issue for the use of the Format menu. What do you
think?

[...]
> > By the way, it would be great to know some more information where this
> > request came from [...]
>
> See the links above for the "Default Formatting" behavioral change. I can
> gladly go further if you request it, but it was to improve functionality.

Oh, thanks, the explanation was already quite helpful!

> There are two opposite-pulling forces as shown by bugs i#47893 and i#85464
> and each time this gets discussed, there are mixed opinions. Everybody
> think differently about this. The proposed rename clarifies what the new
> behavior does *exactly* as of today, so that any change follows a common
> criteria.
>
> Links to the referred bugs:
> http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=85464
> http://qa.openoffice.org/issues/show_bug.cgi?id=47893

Thanks!

> This of course doesn't mean that a "Reset paragraph direct + all character"
> shouldn't exist. It simply needs to be clearly differentiated, maybe its
> own menu entry.

True, at the beginning, I worried more about the name change - removing
some of the consistency of the suite. Due to the supportive statement by
Cor, I'd like you to go ahead.

But, our discussion changed my impression a bit - I'm currently thinking
about an even "less correct change" to let our less experienced users
benefit. Since the users that apply mostly "direct formatting" don't
know about the difference of direct/style based formatting, and the ones
"who know" do very well ... I'd like to throw in a simple "Clear
Formatting". Maybe this is far from what you've intended, and in 50% in
all cases I'll regret any statements made after midnight ... so I better
shut up ;-)

> Best regards.

Thanks for the discussion!

Kind regards,
Christoph