Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

Hi,

Le 15/01/2016 19:28, Pedro Rosmaninho a écrit :
> Michel, you can't complain that people are using links not posted in a
> tdf/libreoffice website and then talk about feedback in a blog of
> someone else. Why didn't that person provide feedback to the design
> mailing list for example?
>
> It's not the work of the people that work in UI/UX for LibreOffice to
> dig through the Internet looking for feedback in obscure blogs.
But that's currently the state of design documents : they are all stored 
in personal gdocs, gdrive, blogs...

That's why I asked to upload all design documents in the official tdf 
wiki : it's the central and official place to find anything related to 
LibreOffice. And it oblige the uploader to choose a license.

It brings 2 other questions about surveys and gdocs :

- Where are stored the surveys datas ? Who own those datas ?



- What are the license of those datas ? of those documents ?

As it is related to a FOSS project, it is very important to be clear 
about license and ownership of everything used to create LibreOffice.
Developers are very precise about anything related to license, and I 
don't understand why developers working in/with the design team don't 
ask that essential question.





> As for
> the tools that they prefer to use, I don't see why they should be forced
> to eat their own dogfood.
> Should they try to incorporate LO as much as possible in their workflow?
> Obviously! But if it's detrimental to their productivity then it's
> better not to untill it suits them (they then can file bugs and offer
> feedback on waht needs to be changed).
> No company in the world does that if there's better alternatives out there.
> Heck, do you think development of software in Google is done in ChromeOS
> or Android? Or that they don't use Windows/MacOS/Linux distros?

Please, don't suppose I'm so dumb...
I write software for 25 years


"eat their own dogfood" has 3 points :

- marketing : enhance confidence in the product
tell people outside the FOSS circle that LibreOffice is really usable 
and versatile

- ethical : TDF fights for open formats, open source software, it is 
logical to use tools that respect those values

- technical : if we are our first users, we'll be the first to ask for 
corrections/enhancements. The more we are uncompromising, the better 
LibreOffice will be.


> People in charge of the UI/UX take into account as much feedback as they
> can and that is quite transparent. Just go check the Hangouts minutes.
> If lately the UI/UX hasn't been stable maybe it's because it had been
> "stable" (more like fossilized) for far too long. There were even loads
> of features that weren't exposed in the UI! I think it's more than
> certain that as the UI/UX becomes updated that it will be more stated.
> But in a piece of software with scheduled releases instead of a "launch
> when it's ready" model people will inevitably see changes across the
> different releases. As they do for the features that are introduced in
> each version.
>
> As for Italo complaints, I find them very unfair since he was really
> aggressive and even issued threats when he just complained in a really
> late stage of the development process for 5.1.

Yes it was a bit aggressive, but that's the feedback of real users in 
real-world usage...



> Where was his feedback
> when this was discussed? Why didn't he provide his feedback earlier?

very good question !

Can you send links of design minutes where that subject was announced 
and discussed ?
I searched in my thunderbird and found nothing
(it may be a search error in my thunderbird)


Another example, I just read in the last design minute [1] that a 
discussion was started about migrating search&replace in sidebar, and 
more important, thinking about modifying the behavior of sidebar !

AFAIK, there was no announcement, we have no idea of any schedule (time 
to discuss, time to make proposals, time to evaluate them, expected time 
of coding...)
How can people participate without a minimum of schedule ?


>  If
> he wants to have a bigger participation in the development then maybe he
> should participate in the process earlier and not start shouting when
> there's already a hard freeze when he could've said something before.
>
> I think there's an issue of people not knowing how to properly leave
> their feedback.


yes, the most important way to give feedback is to participate in hangouts.

As most of us are volunteers, it's not easy to be available at the exact 
time and day of the corresponding subject.

If design team wants to have more people sending feedback, then it 
should announce earlier what it's working on, and then send some kind of 
RFC (request for comment) on different mailing lists (why not social 
networks to have a broader audience ?)


And as I've already said, design process should be done *very early*, 
and it should be completed *before* coding starts !



Michel


[1] http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg07585.html


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