Re: [libreoffice-design] feedback on #91781

On 06/04/2015 05:22 PM, Sophie wrote:
> Hi all,

Hi Sophi, just saw this message now. :D

> Some comments on the details provided on the issue, don't take them as
> criticism but as a long time trainer, here is my feedback with my user
> experience on background.

Your feedback is always valued. :D

> Also, please before making changes to a functionality make sure that you
> have the whole knowledge of what it does. I don't want to put all the
> comments I have on the issue, so on this special one, Jay a menu entry
> is not like a tool bar that you just remove.

Yes i'm aware of the menu entries are different than toolbar buttons, 
which is why i limited my removal of entries to the Edit menu.

> Also when you train people on software, the first thing you tell them is
> to be curious and to visit the menus if they search for something.

Yes we do want more experienced users to visit the menus, which is why 
in the HIG we have stated that the menu bar should contain all commands.

> I'm
> not sure why LibreOffice should be different from others here and make
> the learning curve of the functionalities more difficult.

I didnt quite follow this.

> As to rely on OOo stats that were made years ago, I'm not sure it's a
> good incent, the software and habits have change a lot since.

The software hasnt changed that dramatically since the OOo stats were 
collected and user behaviour doesnt change that much over time as well. 
I dont exclusively rely on the stats, as i do compare LO with its 
various competitors (MSO, iWork, WPS, WordPerfect, Calligra, 
Abiword/Gnumeric).

> * 'Exchange database' doesn't it belongs to bibliography?
> --> no please, do not hide this function that is used a lot doing mail merge

Would 'Exchange Database' be more suitable in the Tools menu next to 
'Bibliography Database'?

> * (Insert) Hyperlink and Edit > Link use the same dialog – we could also
> remove it here
> --> the Edit > link dialog doesn't use the same dialog as Insert, it
> allow you to remove links or update them manually, automatically for
> several different objects.

I'm assuming he meant Insert > Hyperlink and Edit > Hyperlink, which do 
use the same dialog. :D

> Insert (Writer)
>
> * Section… - never heard about ;-) - and the envelope are something like
> a textbox
> --> this one is very common on text formatting, should be at the top

Not very commonly used according to the stats, which likely means its 
commonly used only by experienced/advanced users (aka Eve). The stats 
have Insert > Image > From File as the highest used entry in the menu 
and its submenus and Insert > Section as one of the lowest in the first 
level. Even behind Insert > Envelope and Insert > File. (the namings 
given here are according to LO 4.3)

> * All together I'm a little bit lost here since naming/classification
> the sections is not easy; this menu is too large
> Insert (Calc)
> --> several are too long, need to scroll to display all the items

As HIG says we have to have all of them in the menu, we can only do so 
much. As you said you had to scroll to display them, i checked my laptop 
which is 1280x768 and the insert menu was the longest, but i didnt need 
to scroll according to today's master. It can be reduce by 1 if i move 
Insert > Chart back into Insert > Object.

> Format
> * Looks like a heavy multipurpose menu (I'm looking onto the screenshots
> only) – no idea what's below Text - but is there a difference between
> Number Format and Lists?
>
> --> there is absolutely no need of them in the menu, plus we don't want
> users to use direct formatting but rely on styles instead

There is an absolutely good reason for them. Firstly its defined in the 
HIG that all commands be available in the menus, but secondly you 
previously stated "when you train people on software, the first thing 
you tell them is to be curious and to visit the menus if they search for 
something" and if these items are not available in the menu, how would a 
user discover useful shortcuts like Ctrl+] for Increase Font Size. The 
menu also has commands that weren't previously easily accessible until i 
added them to the toolbar (e.g. superscript, subscript, line spacing, 
increase/decrease paragraph spacing, etc).

We can want users to not use direct formatting, though we present them 
with direct formatting in the toolbar and also in the context menu until 
recently, but it will always be used until styles are presented to users 
in such an easy manner that even a beginner would understand and be 
convinced that it is the only way. We dont even provide an easy means 
for users to select character styles, so if a user wants to make some 
text bold, he will click the bold button in the toolbar over opening the 
styles and formatting dialog, switch to character styles and select 
strong emphasis.

> Will try to find the time to go through more of them.

Look forward to your next round of suggestions, though i had already 
gone through all of Heiko's suggestions with him last wednesday after 
the design meeting. :D

Jay

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