Re: [libreoffice-users] LibreOffice Sort Bug ?

Brian,

Thanks for your reply and for the articles you linked to – especially 
the last one is very interesting. I have been aware of that but not so 
well explained.

As I think you are very cunny both on spreadsheets and how to use them 
and also the mathematics, I am not able to argue.

But I am sure you know what I meant when I said that a spreadsheet is 
‘totally’ worthless if you cannot trust it, if it -- the program, its 
features or functions -- does not work (behave) as supposed.

As an engineer I have been working with MSExcel since late 1980 and have 
since 10 years successively began to use OO/LO.

I’ve always tried to crosscheck important calculations and with 
calculation processes start with some few (random or logical) sample 
data and/or manual calcs to be sure that the formulas (& combinations 
of) work OK.

Whatever people say about Microsoft, I must say that I have never 
experienced any problems caused by the program MSExcel itself (perhaps 
I’ve been lucky) – all my problems have been caused by my typos or my 
bad planning of the calculation process.

But, especially with LibreOffice/Calc I have experienced issues that 
clearly depend on LO as a program and have caused me a lot of extra 
doings – the last couple of years LO has become better.


Regarding the articles. If the programming of  the "very big" programs 
is purchased from a "third party" where the programmer -- the person -- 
does not have no own knowledge (understanding) about the  customer's 
process, then it is an unavoidable necessity that there will be flaws 
and serious issues  -- regarless of branch.

Anyhow, the fact is that Microsoft has a 90 percent market share and 
every MSO suite includes MSExcel.

Above this are e.g. AOO/OO/LOwith roughly 2 mega spreadsheet users and 
their applications.

That means that quite a lot of – some very important -- calculations are 
globally done with these MSO&AOO&OO&LO (..etc..) spreadsheets.

If the spreadsheets are that unreliable as these articles (and you) 
explain, should it not then be good - if not a necessity – to warn about 
it? Experts and “nerds” can manage but not ordinary users like me.

I like LibreOffice and respect its intensions and thus I want it to be 
better.

If LO really wants to increase its market share – to beat MSO, a benefit 
for all users – then it has to eliminate every possible cause of 
problems especially for the ‘ordinary user’ -- even the small ones like 
that sorting issue.

The ordinary user selects a range and pushes the sort button -- if the 
sort does not behave as expected, and there is no explanation why or how 
and the help is too difficult to find -- then he/she considers this a 
problem.
Too many problems is not good for LO.

It is the mass of ‘ordinary users’ that build most of the MSO’s market 
share.

The main and final responsibility lies – not on the (unpaid) programmer 
-- but on the controlling team in the LO organization.
It is better to fix problems at a stage of planning and production than 
after a global distribution(ref. to Quality Management Systems).

regards Pertti Rönnberg





On 27.3.2015 15:25, Brian Barker wrote:
> At 12:38 27/03/2015 +0200, Pertti Rönnberg wrote:
> > A spreadsheet program that cannot be fully trusted is totally 
> > worthless!!
>
> It's perhaps worth a reminder that, in the sense that you mean it, 
> spreadsheets can never be "trusted". Since much of their essential 
> functionality is hidden (formulae, formatting, significant options) 
> and they are untestable, you should never rely on the results of a 
> spreadsheet. Your judgement, then (but not mine) is that spreadsheet 
> programs generally are "totally worthless".
>
> See, for example:
>
> http://lemire.me/blog/archives/2014/05/23/you-shouldnt-use-a-spreadsheet-for-important-work-i-mean-it/ 
>
> "I will happily use a spreadsheet to estimate the grades of my 
> students, my retirement savings, or how much tax I paid last year… but 
> I will not use Microsoft Excel to run a bank or to compute the 
> trajectory of the space shuttle. Spreadsheets are convenient but error 
> prone."
>
> http://baselinescenario.com/2013/02/09/the-importance-of-excel/
> "But while Excel the program is reasonably robust, the spreadsheets 
> that people create with Excel are incredibly fragile."
>
> http://mba.tuck.dartmouth.edu/spreadsheet/product_pubs_files/Literature.pdf 
>
> "Among those who study spreadsheet use, it is widely accepted that 
> errors are prevalent in operational spreadsheets and that errors can 
> lead to poor decisions and cost millions of dollars."
> "Panko summarized this literature by reporting that 94% of 
> spreadsheets have errors, with an average cell error rate of 5.2%."
>
> Brian Barker


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