Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Chapter 2 of Base Guide progress

[drew jensen <drewjensen.inbox@gmail.com>]

On Tue, 2012-03-13 at 09:16 -0300, Lailah wrote:
> Tom:
>             I agree with you but I can't see what is the of mentioning
> Access. I mean, we know that Access works in an specific way and Base
> work in others, but I don't we have to mention it in the documentation.
> I think that saying  is a replacement for others database front-ends is
> enough.  No need of mentioning any other name.  And no need of saying
> that is ugly and that other is pretty.
> We only have to describe our application, that's all.
> What do is important is to say is  "this is better because..."  and
> describe why is flexible, easy to use, etc.

Well, the ability to work with MS Access is a highly important question
and one that if you are being truthful is not really possible with Base.

You can connect to an Access Database as a data source, but you are not
able to make much if any use of major parts of the data (beyond the
tables) held in the MS Access file.

There are also a number of very difficult situations with MS Access that
are commonly the downfall of attempting actual interoperability.

Some of the things that the manual should point out, IMO, queries will
be viewed in Base as either tables or views - this means that users are
often befuddled as to why some Access table will not take updates -
cause they aren't tables, kids.

Queries in MS Access support features for which there are NO equivalents
in Base, without resorting to scripting.

Forms in MS Access support features for which there are NO equivalents
in Base, and you likely would need C++ code to duplicate those, forget
the scripting.

The same can be said for reports.

MS Access supports the ability to connect to multiple data sources,
another 'feature' for which there is NO equivalent in Base or
LibreOffice for that matter. (Two data sources on a stand alone form are
not the same thing)

[However, this actually does have a work around - you simply must use a
DB backend that can do this instead]


Anyway - I would, if I where actually doing this and so I it's my call,
include some information about the issue with queries being picked up as
'views' as this bites a lot of people..beyond that, it's likely FAQ type
stuff, IMO.

Best wishes

//drew


> 
> 
> Is my opinion
> Lailah
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> El lun, 12-03-2012 a las 11:44 +0000, Tom Davies escribió:
> 
> > Hi :)
> > I find it easier to think of it as front-end vs back-end.  Base is a good gui front-end to make it easier to see and manipulate the data.  The data is held in a back-end.  
> > 
> > 
> > I think we  want to keep the guide as simple as possible.  
> > 
> > Back-ends might be small and light such as the HSqlDb one or even a spreadsheet  for 'simple' address books and such-like or a back-end might be something hefty such as MariaDb / MySql or Postgresql, possibly even something that is in a web-site and hosted on a web-facing server.  I don't think Access easily allows you that level of scalability.  
> > 
> > Ideally we would avoid the complexity of the whole back-end vs front-end issue and just deal with Base as if it was like a default Access.  Sadly the default built-in back-end in Base seems to be the main cause of problems whenever people have trouble with Base.  However, also it seems that one of the biggest advantages of Base is that it makes it much more obvious and easier to connect to a wider range of back-ends.  When you try to create a new Base file one of the first questions it asks is "Where is the data?".  
> > 
> > Hmm, well the version of java can also often be a problem but it's easier to handle on
> > the Users List or in forums because more "normal" users are familiar with dealing with java problems.  
> > 
> > So, i don't envy anyone trying to write or develop documentation or Faqs or anything because it's difficult to know what to aim for.  It seems to be a moving target too.  
> > 
> > Regards from
> > Tom :)
> > 
> > 
> > --- On Mon, 12/3/12, Mark Stanton <mark@vowleyfarm.co.uk> wrote:
> > 
> > From: Mark Stanton <mark@vowleyfarm.co.uk>
> > Subject: Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Chapter 2 of Base Guide progress
> > To: documentation@global.libreoffice.org
> > Date: Monday, 12 March, 2012, 8:52
> > 
> > > Then what purpose does Base serve using HSQLDB as its database
> > > engine? Why even write the Base Guide if the whole thing is 
> > > going to be changed?
> > 
> > Because Base can use a wide range of database programs to hold and 
> > "dispense" the data is uses, the guide doesn't have to be "about" any 
> > of them.
> > 
> > The job that Base is doing is providing useful interaction with the 
> > beast that does the work.  Perhaps it's a bit like being a terminal 
> > to a mainframe, but the terminal isn't dumb, and it's also used to 
> > manage the mainframe, not just get information into and out of it.
> > 
> > Because of this management aspect, the guide does need to teach the 
> > reader something about design, which of course has been one of the 
> > reasons databases aren't such a generally used tool as spreadsheets.  
> > I don't mind using HSQLDB commands and requirements as an *example* 
> > of that, as long as the ability to use all sorts of backends is 
> > really headlined.
> > 
> > The really good thing about Base is that it provides tools to put 
> > that data into stuff the user wants; reports, mailmerged documents, 
> > onscreen forms.  That's the stuff that the database engines don't do, 
> > because they're (quite rightly) focused on doing the work, not 
> > presenting the work.
> > 
> > As such, Base is, or could be, a much more comprehensive tool than 
> > Access, and in fact any current database product on the desktop, of 
> > which there is a serious lack these days.  If you want to know, 
> > that's why I'm here.  Microsoft are killing one of the best databases 
> > around, Visual FoxPro, without any credible product to fill the gap.  
> > And to be honest, even that doesn't match up to Writer+mailmerge 
> > fields+backend connectivity.  
> > 
> > Regards
> > Mark Stanton
> > One small step for mankind...
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -- 
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