Aw: Re: [libreoffice-design] Fwd: Re: Re: Re: LibreColor-HLC palette

Hi Taylor,
The files you downloaded carry no copyright and licensing notice, because a) the owner of dtp 
studio forgot to add them and b) you were only allowed to use them, but not to distribute them 
(since you have no licence). That cavalier attitude is quite common in colour-related industries 
like printing, because nobody actually cares (with the exception of so-called colour vendors like 
Pantone or RAL).
As for trademarks, the simple answer from fF is: Hell no! A crude mix of trademarks and copyright 
is the legal base for the iron grip companies like Pantone have on colour-related industries. Its 
one of the purposes of freieFarbe / freeColour to get rid this outdated nonsense that only adds 
unnecessary costs to workflows.
Also, there is no trademark. dtp studio has registered a design patent for the printed colour fans, 
but only to protect them against predators and copycats from the so-called colour industry. If 
someone would create a similar fan for the North American or Asian markets, where CMYK inks and 
mixtures are slightly different from Europe (hence the different colour profiles), its owner has 
pledged to not interfere.
I naturally agree with your last paragraph, but please understand that freieFarbe e.V. / freeColour 
is not astandards organisation. It only propagates the liberation of colour, based on completely 
open and established standards, which in the case of HLC has been created by CIE.
Christoph
Gesendet:Montag, 12. Dezember 2016 um 11:25 UhrVon:Taylor 
Jenkinstaylor.a.jenkins@gmail.comAn:Christoph Schferchristoph-schaefer@gmx.deCc:LibreOffice 
Designdesign@global.libreoffice.org,Heiko Tietzetietze.heiko@googlemail.comBetreff:Re: Aw: 
[libreoffice-design] Fwd: Re: Re: Re: LibreColor-HLC palette
I downloaded the palettes availabe fromhttp://www.dtpstudio.de/palettes.htmland looked at the CIE 
HLC palettes for several of the software packages I am familiar with. None of the palette files I 
looked at had any copyright notice of any kind, so Im wondering why its necessary for the 
LibreColor-HLC.soc to contain a copyright notice?


I understand the importance of protecting the integrity of the color standard. I believe this could 
be done exactly the way LibreOffice protects the integrity of its product through the use of 
trademarks rather than copyrights. Is it acceptable to include code in LO under a 3rd party 
Trademark?


I think this approach of attaching a trademark, if acceptable tofreieFarbe e.V. and LO, would allow 
for more elegant integration into the source code, and provide a greater user experience, with the 
assurance that users are using an official palette. Users would then be able adjust the palette for 
their own needs if desired, or make derivatives, such as creating a smaller version for their own 
corporate branding colors. These derivatives would simply no longer carry the trademark.


I think it makes a lot of sense for LO to be able to work with standards organizations in ways that 
enhance user experience while preserving both freedom and standards. Lets make the discussion about 
how to make it happen, by offering solutions, and alternatives, rather than just pointing out 
problems.


Taylor Jenkins




On Dec 12, 2016 12:31 AM, Christoph Schferchristoph-schaefer@gmx.dewrote:Thank you, Heiko.Some 
details may have been lost in translation, so I take the liberty to clarify my position and 
situation.1) Ive been using this office suite since it was called StarOffice, beginning with v. 3.0 
Business Pack (or whatever it was called back then). I tried others but always returned to 
StarOffice, OpenOffice.org, now LibreOffice.2) I still think LibreOffice and *especially* 
LibreOffice with its many improvements and enhancements is the best Office Suite out there, at 
least for my needs. Its style management is second to none, and the list of import filters is 
breathtaking.3) Ive tested a lot of closed and open source Office Suites for use in cross-media 
workflows, and theres only a single one I can recommend, namely LO.4) freieFarbe e.V. is a 
non-profit organisation, dedicated to liberate colour from its proprietary chains (Pantone, RAL 
etc.) and to establish truly free colour systems based on open standards like CIE L*a*b*.5) We 
hoped to create a win-win situation by offering LibreOffice the integration of the HLC palette. 
Since there is a very good physical colour fan available at a low price, which has been thoroughly 
tested in all kinds of workflows, it would help promoting LibreOffice as the office suite of choice 
in many creative departments or for self-employed creatives. The advantage for freieFarbe was 
supposed to be the promotion of its vendor-independent colour standard with a tried-and-tested HLC 
colour palette.6) Im not opposed to an extension, but I havent created one before, and I simply do 
not have the time to get acquainted with all of the necessary details before your 5.3 release. If 
someone could step up and create the OXT file, Id be grateful for the assistance.7) If you can find 
a way to make the HLC colours a part of 5.3, all the better, but the colour values need to be 
protected against inadvertent or intentional modification in the default installation. Its OK if 
users store a local copy and modify it, but the original needs to be the same across all platforms, 
because otherwise it would become useless.freieFarbe e.V. wants LibreOffice to succeed in the 
creative space, which also needs an office suite. We even promoted it successfully in Switzerland 
as the better alternative to MS Office. So please let us find a way to make LibreOffice the office 
tool of choice for publishing workflows.Thanks,ChristophGesendet: Sonntag, 11. Dezember 2016 um 
10:14 UhrVon:Heiko 
Tietzetietze.heiko@googlemail.comAn:design@global.libreoffice.orgdesign@global.libreoffice.orgBetreff:
 [libreoffice-design] Fwd: Aw: Re: Re: Re: LibreColor-HLC paletteHi all,I had a conversation with 
Christoph Schaefer about the palette thing in the last days. He is not happy with what happened and 
in particular how the communication was going. Im translating his last email excluding the 
exaggerated parts just for information and not to start a lengthy discussion. While in my opinion 
we improved the color palette handling, the discussion was indeed not really welcoming. Thats my 
responsibility as the initial discussion could have been done out of the bug tracker, for instance. 
But after all I believe that transparency is paramount for open source. Nevertheless we all should 
remind to find positive wording when talking to contributors.Christoph:If I get you right its now 
up to me to create the extension. But that makes it necessary to become familiar with it, 
especially since palette handling was changed for 5.3. I have no time currently because new Scribus 
releases are planned. Furthermore I have two book projects on my hands. I canceled a publication in 
the SwissPublisherregarding the exemplary handling of color palettes in LibreOffice compared to MS 
Office since you scrapped it all. Waiting now for the 5.3 release...The Free Color e.V aimed to 
give LibreOffice a treat as the HLC palette fits perfectly into the cross media workflow, which is 
a perfect argument pro LibO. Even when its the goal of fC to unleash color from proprietary 
restrictions.Tor Lillqvists approach was pragmatic and makes sense from my POV. I would have never 
expected that it results in such a laborious and time-consuming procedure.And in a follow-up 
email:I still believe that LibO is the best office suite, especially for the publishing.What 
bothers me, as a pragmatist, are the formalism and harping on about principles, also from the 
usability experts.Guess his point is clear now.Cheers,Heiko-------- Forwarded Message 
--------Subject: Aw: Re:Re: Re: LibreColor-HLC paletteDate: Sun, 11 Dec 2016 09:16:56 
+0100From:Christoph Schferchristoph-schaefer@gmx.deTo: Heiko Tietzetietze.heiko@googlemail.comMit 
der Extension sollte jetzt aber alles deinen Wnschen entsprechen. Oder?Wenn ich Dich richtig 
verstanden habe, soll ich die Extension selbst produzieren. Dazu muich mich erst einarbeiten, zumal 
Du ja mitgeteilt hast, dasich in 5.3 die Behandlung von Paletten grundlegend gendert hat. Ich habe 
aber momentan keine Zeit dafr, denn Scribus 1.4.7 und 1.5.3 stehen vor der Verffentlichung. Darber 
hinaus habe ich noch zwei Buchprojekte am Hals, von denen eines noch vor Weihnachten fertig werden 
mu. Einen Artikel im SchweizerPublisherzum vorbildlichen Umgang von LibreOffice mit Farbpaletten im 
Vergleich zu MS Office habe ich absagen mssen, weil Ihr anscheinend allesber Bord geworfen habt. 
Ich warte also bis zur Verffentlichung von 5.3 ab, wie das aussieht...Der Verein freieFarbe e.V. 
war eigentlich der Absicht, dem LibreOffice-Projekt etwas Gutes tun wollen, weil es sich mit der 
HLC-Palette im Gegensatz zu MS Office perfekt in einen Cross-Media-Workflow einpassen lt, was 
eigentlich eines der besten Werbeargumente for LO ist. Auch ist es ein Ziel des Vereins, Farbe von 
ihren proprietren Fesseln zu befreien....Tor Lillqvists Ansatz war pragmatisch und aus meiner Sicht 
sinnvoll, und ich htte nicht gedacht, daaus unserem Angebot eine derart umstndliche und (fr mich) 
zeitaufwendige Prozedur werden wrde.Schnen SonntagChristoph...Ich glaube LibreOffice ist das beste 
Office-Paket, gerade auch frs Publishing.Was mich als Pragmatiker jedoch strt, sind Formalismus und 
Prinzipenreiterei, auch von seiten der Usability-Experten.--To unsubscribe e-mail 
to:design+unsubscribe@global.libreoffice.orgProblems?http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/Posting
 guidelines + more:http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/NetiquetteList 
archive:http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/All messages sent to this list will be 
publicly archived and cannot be deleted--To unsubscribe e-mail 
to:design+unsubscribe@global.libreoffice.orgProblems?http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/Posting
 guidelines + more:http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/NetiquetteList 
archive:http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/All messages sent to this list will be 
publicly archived and cannot be deleted




-- 
To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscribe@global.libreoffice.org
Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/
Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette
List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/
All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted