Hi Christoph, it is a gut feeling to say 20 colors per palette are enough but also based on the fact that company branding usually goes with far less colors. Your LibreColor set is an 'expert palette' and would be the basis for such a restricted 'user palette'. However, Mike supports your position and wants rather more freedom than limitation. So I might be wrong. The recent changes to palette modifications are based on the idea of consistency and simplicity for the ordinary user. In the past (actually still in the current version) you can modify predefined palettes and change factory settings. Of course that would be possible in future too but only when you 'hack' the soc file. We introduced a new custom palette for user-defined colors and made it more convenient to use. So only one palette is available for modification in the GUI. More about the changes (not only palette handling was challenged) https://design.blog.documentfoundation.org/2015/12/22/area-fill-options-made-consistent/ http://www.slideshare.net/HeikoTietze/libocon16areafill The design team has a welcome page at https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design where I updated the new meeting time right now: It is every Thursday at 10am UTC (11:00 CET). We meet on Google Hangouts but may move to Jitsi. You can contact the team at IRC, #libreoffice-design. Kind regards, Heiko On 11/17/2016 08:11 AM, "Christoph Schäfer" wrote:
Hello Heiko, Thank you very much for your quick reply. First of all we need to make clear we are using the same terminology. Where I come from (graphics and publishing), a "palette" means a collection of colours stored in a file. As to your statement "The ordinary user likely wants to have only one palette with ~20 brand colors", I'd be interested how you determined this. Did you have a survey? Please note that I'm not denying your assumption. I'm rather interested in the empirical base of it. I'm also curious about your definition of "brand colour". What does that mean? It can't be something like HKS or Pantone, since these are named colours with a unique colour value. In ODF, however, colours are only stored with a hex value, not as named colours, so the "branding" disappears once you save the file. It's fine with me if most LibreOffice users only want to use a limited set of colours. We actually removed most colour palettes (i.e., colour collections) from the development version of Scribus and switched to offering the rest (c. 400 palettes) for download via our new "Resource Manager". We kept CIE-HLC and CIE-LAB, though, simply because we support freieFarbe / freeColour and because we encourage our users to save money by using the inexpensive, yet extremely useful "LibreColour" fans. My position on the number of colour palettes? Offer a reasonable small selection (of palettes, not colours per palette), including CIE-HLC, with the default installation of LO, and offer the rest as download option, either from within LO or via a plug-in. As for the number of colours per palette, I don't think it's a safe bet to make any assumptions. User requirements are likely to be varied. IMHO, LibreOffice would place itself as the Office suite of choice in cross-media workflows by including the CIE-HLC palette. If you don't know what "cross-media workflow" means, I suggest you watch an introductory video by my Swiss colleague Peter Jäger under https://com2publish.ch/lektionen/crossmedia-beratung-%E2%80%93-von-der-sachbearbeitung-bis-zum-layouter. I'm assuming you're a native speaker of German, based on your name, so I'm quite sure you'll be able to understand it. LibreOffice's position is unique here, because it actually allows changing the default palette and hence adjust to different workflow requirements, something no other Office suite I know of, and certainly not MS Office, can. As to the "weekly hangout", I must admit I'm totally new to this list. What does it mean and where in the virtual world does it happen? Kind regards, ChristophGesendet: Mittwoch, 16. November 2016 um 09:24 Uhr Von: "Heiko Tietze" <tietze.heiko@googlemail.com> An: "Christoph Schäfer" <christoph-schaefer@gmx.de> Cc: "LibreOffice Design" <design@global.libreoffice.org> Betreff: Re: [libreoffice-design] "LibreColour" palettes for LibreOffice Hi Christoph, great to see more creative people here. Me as an usability expert and the other regular team members are rather UX driven and do not focus too much on visual aspects, so having you at the list (at least, maybe also at our weekly hangout on Thursday) is very appreciated. About the colors we actually have a todo item at https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Whiteboards (look for Palette) that references the ticket https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=80196 with my comments regarding the whole topic in comment 29. The ordinary user likely wants to have only one palette with ~20 brand colors (e.g. LibreOffice). Now it's easy to imagine that people do not work for just LibreOffice but also Gnome (Tango), KDE (Breeze), Web (HTML) etc. and need additional palettes. But it's hard to imagine how to deal with the 545 (luckily named) colors from the Scribus palette. So my proposal was/is to strip down what is not needed by the majority of users and provide easy means to add own (https://design.blog.documentfoundation.org/2016/11/11/additions-to-libreoffice/). What is your position about the default set of palettes? Should we limit the number of palettes, have also a manageable size in terms of <50 colors (this is a very arbitrary number), postulate elaborated color names? Cheers, Heiko 2016-11-16 8:35 GMT+01:00 "Christoph Schäfer" <christoph-schaefer@gmx.de>:Hi LibreOffice Design Team, I've joined this list after some back and forth with Mike Saunders. First of all, let me introduce myself. I'm a member of the Scribus Team and also a supporter of the German non-profit organisation freieFarbe e.V. (www.freiefarbe.de; English: www.freecolour.org). Apart from contributing to both projects, I'm also promoting Scribus and other LibreGraphics projects in talks, discussions an hands-on demonstrations in Austria, Germany and the German-speaking parts of Switzerland. My latest talks were held during the "swiss publish days 2016" in Berne (CH). One was a general overview about LibreGraphics tools for graphics professionals (which is the major audience of this conference), the other one was about LibreOffice as a file converter, as well as tool to create office graphics that can actually be printed at high resolutions or being further enhanced using a professional vector graphics software like Illustrator or CorelDraw. This is one way to sell LibreOffice to graphics professionals who most likely prefer MacOffice, since these are features that MS Office doesn't provide. Moreover, MacOffice doesn't include MS Publisher or MS Visio, so MacOffice customers still need LibreOffice to convert output from these programmes. Another selling point for LibreOffice arose out of a new development at freieFarbe / freeColour. fF / fC will release version 2.0 of the "OpenColour Systems Collection" (OCSC). This is a collection of colour palettes, mostly from commercial vendors. The collection isn't based on the original colour values provided by these vendors, but on colorimetric measuring of their physical colour references. The colour values themselves are stored as CIE L*a*b. OCSC v. 1.0 only comprised SBZ palettes, a format that apart from SwatchBooker only the development version of Scribus can read. In v. 2.0, however, we'll also include ASE files for Adobe programmes, as well as plain text files. In addition we'll provide RGB versions in the formats GPL (GIMP, Inkscape, Calligra Office, MyPaint), XML (Scribus 1.4.x) AND ... drumroll: SOC (LibreOffice, OpenOffice), which means that more than 350 colour systems will be available to LibreOffice users under a CC licence (https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nd/4.0/legalcode). In other words, LibreOffice users will be enabled to use real-world colour references (within the confines of the sRGB colour space) like graphics professionals do. This is impossible with MS Office! And there's even more: fF / fC has produced "LibreColour" fans, i.e., fans based on the CIE L*a*b colour model, which is an international free standard. There are two versions of the fan, one using the original CIE L*a*b model. This one can be ignored by LibreOffice users, because LO doesn't support L*a*b and doesn't have to. The purpose of this fan is to check screen colours in L*a*b against a real word reference by using the "L" value as the guide, which isn't exactly intuitive. More interesting is the CIE HLC fan, which provides 1032 colours using the HLC model. Using this fan it's easy to find a real word colour via the "Hue" value and choose its equivalent in a software like LibreOffice, even if it only supports the sRGB colour space. The physical fans provide colour values in CIE L*a*b, CIE HLC, sRGB, CMYK (FOGRA39, coated paper), and HEX. Currently the usage instructions included in the fans and the "shop" site (http://dtpstudio.de/cielab/shop.php) are only available in German, but I'll translate them into English soon. Please note that the fans' production was expensive. The retail price only covers the costs. A Swiss colleague of mine, who is an expert in the field of cross-media publishing, thinks using LibreOffice with the default colour palette set to CIE-HLC and the CIE HLC colour fan is the most efficient way to work in a cross-media workflow that includes a sophisticated office suite, even if the main office suite is still MS Office. Hence my request to consider replacing the current default colour palette with CIE-HLC.soc or at least to add it to the palettes shipped with LibreOffice. Since an English version of the colour fans isn't available yet, I suggest you consider my request to be a mid- to long-term suggestion. There's no need to hurry, and if LibreOffice can be made the perfect office suite in cross-media workflows only in version 6, so be it. Thanks for your patience; any feedback will be welcome. Kind regards, Christoph -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscribe@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted-- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscribe@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
-- Dr. Heiko Tietze UX Designer Tel. +49 (0)179/1268509 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: design+unsubscribe@global.libreoffice.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted